Where to for Super Rugby?

[hifflepiff]

The only problem I've found with the current Super Rugby AU (an AO) is, because there's only 5 teams in each competition, I get fatigue from watching the same teams week in week out.

I wouldn't mind trying something like;
1 entire round of Super Rugby AU and AO separately
1 round of AU vs AO
1 entire round of Super Rugby AU and AO Separately

AU and AO Finals

AU Winner vs AO Winner.

That breaks the season up with new teams and gives your team an opportunity to play against new opposition and ways of defending/attacking before you re-play your local teams.

We now have a break between the competition winners and the top two TT teams playing each other.

I feel a structure like this would end up being confusing for your casual follower and break up the domestic seasons momentum.

To be honest I don't really get how to current format is fatiguing. If it went for 16 weeks and you had each team playing each other 3-4 times sure, but Its only an 8 round comp, home and away + finals.

The benefit of having trans-tasman/champions league after the domestic comp is that the formula gets refreshed right as it would otherwise become boring.

Plus you get all the hype and anticipation from the domestic season that then follows through to international competiton. "This team crashed out in AU, can they turn it around?", "this team beat everyone in AO, can they keep it up?".

As with all forms of media you want an easy, compelling narrative to be able to sell to your audience, which Domestic, followed by Trans-Tasman provides.

 

[PhilClinton]

Whilst I don't disagree with you Ignoto, does that over complicate things for the casual or new watcher?

Having to understand which comp they're playing in week in week out. Whilst rugby is re-establishing itself as a brand in Australia, I think they would want to keep everything succinct. One comp ends, the next comp begins type thing.

 

[Set piece magic]

I must be in the minority here but I think the only way is to have a home and away all in round robin comp with a semi final and a final. No AU only final, no NZ only final.

I know that doesn't seem like the way forward after this weekend, but it'll make the comp look like a complete embarassment if we're suddenly panned by the NZ sides over the next month. Also, I think the comp was very lucky this year that the Reds hosted the final. The Reds clearly have the biggest fan base, but if any other team was hosting the final there would be nowhere near as much noise. There's a chance the game would embarrass itself, if for example Melbourne somehow ended up hosting the final and couldn't even fill AAMI Park.

It's also worth noting it's only the large crowd expectation that pushed the hype machine up and got the game onto Channel 9's main channel.

This year's AU tournament had a perfect script, with the Force shaking it up and making a surprise tilt, a titanic battle at the top between the Brumbies and Reds, and a great final. There's every chance we don't get the same hand of cards next year.

In the longer comp there is also more momentum building for sides. For example, should the Rebels actually put a run together, they have a solid 15 games of momentum building before finals. If a team like the Rebels is suddenly getting it together, there is no way they're building the fan base up in just 10 games.

These considerations for the future of the comp need to be made in the cold, after the fact, and not on the high of one highly successful final hosted in QLD

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I feel a structure like this would end up being confusing for your casual follower and break up the domestic seasons momentum.

To be honest I don't really get how to current format is fatiguing. If it went for 16 weeks and you had each team playing each other 3-4 times sure, but Its only an 8 round comp, home and away + finals.

The benefit of having trans-tasman/champions league after the domestic comp is that the formula gets refreshed right as it would otherwise become boring.

Plus you get all the hype and anticipation from the domestic season that then follows through to international competiton. "This team crashed out in AU, can they turn it around?", "this team beat everyone in AO, can they keep it up?".

As with all forms of media you want an easy, compelling narrative to be able to sell to your audience, which Domestic, followed by Trans-Tasman provides.

In time hopefully refresh it by adding 6th team (e.g. Drua), or if it really does start to go stale vs TT which is going great guns cut it back to say one round with finals or no finals. Point being keep it going (Super Rugby AU) whilst still engaging fans and only adjust / tinker with it when proven gone scale and/or viable alternatives to rely on (e.g. successful TT product).

 

[hifflepiff]

I must be in the minority here but I think the only way is to have a home and away all in round robin comp with a semi final and a final. No AU only final, no NZ only final.

I know that doesn't seem like the way forward after this weekend, but it'll make the comp look like a complete embarassment if we're suddenly panned by the NZ sides over the next month. Also, I think the comp was very lucky this year that the Reds hosted the final. The Reds clearly have the biggest fan base, but if any other team was hosting the final there would be nowhere near as much noise. There's a chance the game would embarrass itself, if for example Melbourne somehow ended up hosting the final and couldn't even fill AAMI Park.

It's also worth noting it's only the large crowd expectation that pushed the hype machine up and got the game onto Channel 9's main channel.

This year's AU tournament had a perfect script, with the Force shaking it up and making a surprise tilt, a titanic battle at the top between the Brumbies and Reds, and a great final. There's every chance we don't get the same hand of cards next year.

In the longer comp there is also more momentum building for sides. For example, should the Rebels actually put a run together, they have a solid 15 games of momentum building before finals. If a team like the Rebels is suddenly getting it together, there is no way they're building the fan base up in just 10 games.

These considerations for the future of the comp need to be made in the cold, after the fact, and not on the high of one highly successful final hosted in QLD

If Australian teams are getting panned in the Trans-Tasman, I don't see how the solution is to go to a competition where we're getting panned for a full year.

The Rebels don't get anyone going to their games because frankly, we've been shit for most of our existence. Teams build up fanbases by winning. That's going to be a hell of a lot easier in an Aussie only competition.

Plus even if one Australian team is losing, another is winning. That's not guaranteed in Trans-Tasman.

 

[Dan54]

Whilst I don't disagree with you Ignoto, does that over complicate things for the casual or new watcher?

Having to understand which comp they're playing in week in week out. Whilst rugby is re-establishing itself as a brand in Australia, I think they would want to keep everything succinct. One comp ends, the next comp begins type thing.

It works really well in NH where the Top 14 whatever and heinekein Cup or whatever run concurrently with certain weeks put aside for Heineken Cup, think it would work really well, are all new viewers down this end of world a bit hick? It quite easy. How they do it in soccer etc too in NH, they all seem to be able to understand that some weeks are one comp and others another.
I am starting to feel quite smart as I find these things simple to follow.

 

[Ignoto]

Hell, I follow Chelsea and in a 7 day period they could play in 3 separate competitions; the English Premier League, the Champions League and then the FA Cup.

Fairweather Fans will follow their team without too much fan fare. Only the diehards watch their team from 12-4am.

 

[hifflepiff]

It works really well in NH where the Top 14 whatever and heinekein Cup or whatever run concurrently with certain weeks put aside for Heineken Cup, think it would work really well, are all new viewers down this end of world a bit hick? It quite easy. How they do it in soccer etc too in NH, they all seem to be able to understand that some weeks are one comp and others another.
I am starting to feel quite smart as I find these things simple to follow.

European Football and Rugby function that way as a result of time constraints and the huge number of clubs and competitions they need to accommodate. Maybe in future we can operate that way but at the moment it would just be another case of SH rugby being too clever by half and making things needlessly complex.

And its not so much that Australians wouldn't understand, I'm sure people that follow the sport would get it. Its more that Union in this country is working from a very low base of public interest after years and years of media narratives focusing on how shit our teams are.

We as a matter of necessity need to attract new fans that haven't followed Union either recently or ever. The easiest way to do that is to have straightforward, easy to understand competition formats with marketable teams representing places that people have an emotional, tribal connection to, that aren't getting blown out every weekend.

 

[Dctarget]

The Rebels don't get anyone going to their games because frankly, we've been shit for most of our existence. Teams build up fanbases by winning. That's going to be a hell of a lot easier in an Aussie only competition.

Agreed, if we were hosting the finals and minor premiers, we'd easily be getting 20k+ (which would look good in AAMI). Melburnians only love one thing more than sport and that's hoping on a bandwagon.

 

[Derpus]

The Rebels don't get anyone going to their games because frankly, we've been shit for most of our existence. Teams build up fanbases by winning. That's going to be a hell of a lot easier in an Aussie only competition.

They aren't off to a great start.

 

[Kevin77]

. Also, I think the comp was very lucky this year that the Reds hosted the final. The Reds clearly have the biggest fan base, but if any other team was hosting the final there would be nowhere near as much noise. T

You've obviously not been keeping tabs on things in Perth.

Watch this weekend v Chiefs. We'll be allowed 75% capacity so would expect to reach that.

Also our final game of the season only had 7k but that was because we had a COVID lockdown announced that afternoon. We would have had at least double that.

if we had a grand final in Perth we'd fill HBF (22k) or if they moved to Optus we'd probably get 40k plus.

The fans here are passionate and numerous

 

[Set piece magic]

You've obviously not been keeping tabs on things in Perth.

Watch this weekend v Chiefs. We'll be allowed 75% capacity so would expect to reach that.

Also our final game of the season only had 7k but that was because we had a COVID lockdown announced that afternoon. We would have had at least double that.

if we had a grand final in Perth we'd fill HBF (22k) or if they moved to Optus we'd probably get 40k plus.

The fans here are passionate and numerous

There's a great fan base in Perth and I'm well aware that it has the potential to be huge and that the Force is a bona fide part of the community there. I just think when the Force actually have a winning team they deserve to stampede it in with 15 huge games and to put 60k in Optus, not 40

 

[Kevin77]

There's a great fan base in Perth and I'm well aware that it has the potential to be huge and that the Force is a bona fide part of the community there. I just think when the Force actually have a winning team they deserve to stampede it in with 15 huge games and to put 60k in Optus, not 40

To your original point I don't believe that if the Force had hosted a GF the crowd turnout would have been embarassing. I understand your point but to be fair if NSW were in a good place I think they'd get a decent GF crowd too.

 

[PhilClinton]

It works really well in NH where the Top 14 whatever and heinekein Cup or whatever run concurrently with certain weeks put aside for Heineken Cup, think it would work really well, are all new viewers down this end of world a bit hick? It quite easy. How they do it in soccer etc too in NH, they all seem to be able to understand that some weeks are one comp and others another.
I am starting to feel quite smart as I find these things simple to follow.

Yep I'm aware other sports and countries do play different comps concurrently, but comparing NH soccer competitions to what rugby is trying to do in Australia at the moment are worlds apart.

I can't talk for the NH rugby as I'm not really across it, but with the soccer we're talking about extremely well supported and historical teams. They could probably play 5 times a week in 5 different countries and the fan base would still know exactly what is going on and when.

Super Rugby teams in Australia are still at the stage where casual viewers and fans alike are asking questions about how teams are going, whos playing who, what night is it on etc and it's only a 5 team comp. I think for ease of reference there needs to be at least another year or two of simplified competition for the sport to regain it feet.

I'm not opposed to the ideas above, but I think jumping into it too quickly would hurt the brand.

 

[Rebels3]

The beauty of soccer and European rugby with the multiple competitions is that there is multiple opportunities to engage fans.

In soccer for some teams you can come 16th in the league, get knocked out of the league cup first round but make the final of the FA Cup and you have had a successful season.

It might be a little different for the really big teams but even they can bomb out of multiple competitions but win the domestic league and its a success.

A prime example would be (we know its not going to happen) but by some miracle the Tahs make the TT final. It would be seen as a great season despite finishing last in the other comp.

If the Brumbies win the TT comp it would be an amazing season for 2 teams. Even if the Reds failed to win a TT game they have had a solid season.

Engagement is everything.

- Viewer friendly and regular time slots
- Success for teams

 

[Dan54]

Yep, to be honest I think it would take a little to set up anyway, I just think it a great way to have tournaments. Imagine if we had a tiered type comps running. But it kind of a fantasy kind of thing.
One thing we have to remember is any comp has to make money and fairly quickly, RA has already had a loan from WR (World Rugby), and are apparently trying to get 40 mill elsewhere? I can understand their need to have a comp and it makes it hard I guess to look too far ahead if you having to survive.
Probably a bit easier for us that don't need to balance the books.

 

[sendit]

You've obviously not been keeping tabs on things in Perth.

Watch this weekend v Chiefs. We'll be allowed 75% capacity so would expect to reach that.

Also our final game of the season only had 7k but that was because we had a COVID lockdown announced that afternoon. We would have had at least double that.

if we had a grand final in Perth we'd fill HBF (22k) or if they moved to Optus we'd probably get 40k plus.

The fans here are passionate and numerous

Also helps that Twiggy is willing and able to hand out free tickets by the bucketful to get attendance numbers up

 

[Kevin77]

Also helps that Twiggy is willing and able to hand out free tickets by the bucketful to get attendance numbers up

That was during Rapid Rugby. Isn't happening with since Super Rugby AU.

We've always had great crowds here in the the West. Getting 30k plus in early days in Super Rugby.
Even in the darkest days of the Foley era we were still getting circa 10k.

 

[dru]

I must be in the minority here but I think the only way is to have a home and away all in round robin comp with a semi final and a final. No AU only final, no NZ only final.

NO, not in the minority.

More's the pity.

IMO it would be a major error to lock in with NZ in a comp like this. We should be doubling down on domestic. Then let the TT thing go where it goes. And if NZ are being difficult, or tricky, or not allowing Aus requirements to drive forward - then fuck them.

I'd much prefer working out our game in Australia if they won't play ball. And they won't. have shown no interest at all in it. Let them see how they role with a 5 or 6 team internal comp without us as we work the natural strength that is Australia.

We've been pandering for far too long.

<Picks up his ball and goes home, ranting, tail between legs.>

 

[Kevin77]

The irony for both Australia and New Zealand is that they need each other. Almost equally. This is due to the geography and time zones we sit in. There are not obvious alternative competitions.
Australia needs New Zealand because of their heritage, their standing in the game, the gravitas the bring to any competition. Were they located in Europe, New Zealand would be an unstoppable juggernaut on and off the pitchy. However New Zealand needs Australia because they cannot go alone, they need Australia’s population and resources and dollars and the competition.

Neither can realistically survive without each other in the long term without a radical overhaul in thinking. If they continue to bicker and argue the European elite will pick them off and we might just be left with a semi pro set up in the south.

The best thing we can all hope for is some kind of 12 team Super Rugby with 5 Aussie teams, 5 Kiwi teams and a couple of others.

Australian rugby needs to get it’s house in order and start managing the game properly. Then they need to get the Kiwis to the table and hammer out a cohesive competition that is clear and easy to follow.
12 teams. Each team plays each other one. Eleven games. Or even better home and away and twenty two games. Straight up and easy to follow finals.