Waratahs v Blues. Sydney.

[Lee Grant]

The Blues will be demanding underdog status behind a few grins, having seen the game in Perth n TV, but the table is misleading with some teams having byes.

Until everybody has had the bye a better way to list standings is by the number of table points that have been lost with those that have lost the fewest being on top.

Every team has a possibility of getting 5 points in a game. The teams who have played 5 games could have earned 25 points by now, and those that have played 6 games could have earned 30.

Thus the table is better expressed as follows:

PL
Bulls 1
Stormers 7
Crusaders 7
Chiefs 9
Reds 10
Blues 11
Waratahs 12
Brumbies 13
Hurricanes 15
Cheetahs 16
Sharks 22
Highlanders 24
Force 24
Lions 28

Thus the Blues are clear favourites.

Such a table does not take into account the standard of opponents played against, or not, to date; but it is a better measure of quality than the standard table.

Tahs 4th best to date? My bum they are.

 

[waratahjesus]

Re: Tahs v Blues

wow, so being negative of the syle of play isnt enough aymore?
they have won three games that people around here seem to think there style of play means there crap. if there winning the crap games they play and continue to do so as they did last year, there going to be in a much better place come the last four rounds than they were last year and that is when they finally clicked. the tahs are much better off this year than last.
game should be good, blues will score points and should force the tahs to have a go as well.

just ask before everyone comes in and complains.
what can the tahs actually do this week that would make you not criticise them?
if they polay well and score four trys will it just be cos the blues played crap?
if they just win a close game will it not be enough?
if they lose in an open thriller with trys from both sides will it be better cos they played like the reds?
if they get flogged but pass the ball around is it a good thing?

 

[Newb]

Re: Tahs v Blues

have read that baxter and jowitt are recovered from injury, but palu may still be in doubt with his bum hammy.

 

[Biffo]

Re: Tahs v Blues

what can the tahs actually do this week that would make you not criticise them?

A better question is how bad the Tahs have to play for you to see that something is wrong.

 

[Ash]

Re: Tahs v Blues

wow, so being negative of the syle of play isnt enough aymore?
they have won three games that people around here seem to think there style of play means there crap. if there winning the crap games they play and continue to do so as they did last year, there going to be in a much better place come the last four rounds than they were last year and that is when they finally clicked. the tahs are much better off this year than last.
game should be good, blues will score points and should force the tahs to have a go as well.

It was more the manner of some of the Tahs' victories - that is, lucky and/or barely scraping it in. As the Brumbies showed, when you're struggling to win and not clicking, when you finally play one of the better teams like the Blues it becomes that much harder to win.

Hence, why your persistent optimism is...surprising.

just ask before everyone comes in and complains.
what can the tahs actually do this week that would make you not criticise them?
if they polay well and score four trys will it just be cos the blues played crap?
if they just win a close game will it not be enough?
if they lose in an open thriller with trys from both sides will it be better cos they played like the reds?
if they get flogged but pass the ball around is it a good thing?

Funny, I read largely universal praise for the Tahs after the Lions game.

 

[waratahjesus]

Re: Tahs v Blues

i dont enjoy the way there winning, but they have played bad three times this year and won three times. losses to the bulls and stormers in south africa dont actually reflect that badly.

my question remains, not if i cant see through my rose coloured glasses or some other crap were everyone attacks me and doesnt actually give an opinion themselves until one becomes popular, what do they have to do for you to say something positive?

i never once said they wernt playing badly, but the fact they are playing badly and still winning reflects pretty well if they can pull it together as i said above.

 

[#1 Tah]

Re: Tahs v Blues

just ask before everyone comes in and complains.
what can the tahs actually do this week that would make you not criticise them?
if they polay well and score four trys will it just be cos the blues played crap?
if they just win a close game will it not be enough?
if they lose in an open thriller with trys from both sides will it be better cos they played like the reds?
if they get flogged but pass the ball around is it a good thing?

Its not the people. its the Tahs. Being from the biggest Australian state (population-wise) there will always be pressure on them to perform. also Aussies love to critisise their own teams. Look at the wallabies during the tri-nations. if you said the thing that were said against the wallabies against the al blacks while living in NZ, you will be killed on the charge of treason.

I hate to sound like chris hickey, but being able to grind out wins in the close matches is a great skill and those wins matter at the end of the season.

 

[Blue]

Re: Tahs v Blues

Hints:

Catch.

Pass.

Run straight.

Don't kick with an overlap.

Don't throw daft passes.

That sort of thing.

:

PS I think this is going to be a cracker. Tahs can't farque around and have to score points.

 

[#1 Tah]

Re: Tahs v Blues

Barnsey:look where you are passing

 

[Lee Grant]

Re: Tahs v Blues

#1 Tah

You are right but if you go back 12 months ago we were writing much the same things; so we want change for change sake. Let's be honest - things weren't peachy under Link either and there were a lot of negative posts then also. Sure we made the finals a few times but defence can only take you so far.

Many Tahs fans want to see our players have a go at using the ball if the ball is good. And if they do have a go we want to see some evidence that they have had some training in the basics such as clearing the ball quickly and accurately from the ruck, or whatever, passing the ball in front of runners, running straight and not toward touch, running at gaps before the ball is received and actually catching the ball.

If they still fail, too bad, but let's see some attempts using basic skills that the fathers and grandfathers of these lads had.

Sometimes the ball is crap and we have to excuse the backs but we don't for example want to see a scrummie running across to find a gap all night. Maybe the forwards aren't there to take the ball up so he can run off them as at Loftus, but if they aren't, just get rid of it early - you never know.

 

[waratahjesus]

Re: Tahs v Blues

all im asking is for people to write there expectations down so after the weekend we can tick or cross what exactly they want, the criticism has gone beyond this and that to levels of it wouldnt matter what they did they would still suck.

the wallabies deserved more cos they lost, the tahs arnt actually in a bad position, they might be in a few weeks but there not now.

 

[Biffo]

Re: Tahs v Blues

just ask before everyone comes in and complains.
what can the tahs actually do this week that would make you not criticise them?
if they polay well and score four trys will it just be cos the blues played crap?
if they just win a close game will it not be enough?
if they lose in an open thriller with trys from both sides will it be better cos they played like the reds?
if they get flogged but pass the ball around is it a good thing?

Its not the people. its the Tahs. Being from the biggest Australian state (population-wise) there will always be pressure on them to perform. also Aussies love to critisise their own teams. Look at the wallabies during the tri-nations. if you said the thing that were said against the wallabies against the al blacks while living in NZ, you will be killed on the charge of treason.

I hate to sound like chris hickey, but being able to grind out wins in the close matches is a great skill and those wins matter at the end of the season.

I am less polite than Lee Grant. WTF!! Are you joking? Have you a memory span of less than 12 months?

You surely are Chris Hickey

The primary mathematical reason the Tahs failed to make the semis last year was that they scored too few points on the field. The secondary reason was they accumulated too few bonus points from tries. Simple arithmetic tells you that five bonus points trumps four game points. The Tahs are in a remarkably similar position to where they were last year at the same stage. What is there to suggest that the rest of the season will be any different to 09?

Chris, please do some sums and get back to work drawing up game plans to enable your blokes to make the semis and have a red hot crack at winning the whole thing. While you are at your drawing board, have your assistants drill the players in the fundamentals. If you don't know what those are, Blue will help out.

 

[Ash]

Re: Tahs v Blues

The Tahs are 4 from 6:
- Very lucky scratchy win vs the Reds
- Bad loss to Stormers, who are one of the top sides are this stage
- Accounted for themselves well in a loss to the Bulls, who are the top team at this stage
- Very lucky scratchy win vs the Sharks, who were in woeful form and were struggling
- Impressive flogging of the Lions, who were struggling
- Scratchy win vs the Force, who were struggling

For the Tahs fans hoping for a finals berth, these games should leave you pessimistic of their finals chances. Seeing as the Tahs were expected to be pushing for a finals berth, they are a bit disappointing (like the Brumbies).

For the Tahs fans hoping for a mid table finish, you would be optimistic of that.

For the Tahs fans hoping for some attractive rugby from the Tahs, you would be damn well confused.

The Blues will be a great test for the Tahs to see how the Tahs are going. The Tahs will need to play a hell of a lot better than they did vs the Sharks and Force to beat the Blues. Even to get another scratchy win they will need to improve. Looking at 4 of their 6 performances, you wonder if they can do it. You should NOT be happy with consistently scratchy wins against sides you think are the bottom ones unless you are having a hefty rotation.

Regarding saying positive stuff on the Tahs, did you guys NOT read the thread on the Lions game? Was there not almost universal praise there for the Tahs? It's like arguing with a gold fish...

Regardless of the above sillyness, the Tahs have what it takes to beat the Blues. Strong defence, good scrambling defence and making first up tackles are all things the Tahs have done well with over the last few years, although not as well since Kiss departed. I am relatively confident the Tahs can stop the Blues scoring another 30 - 40 points, but the real question is can the Tahs score enough to ensure they win.

 

[Viking]

Re: Tahs v Blues

Waratahsjesus is right. No matter what they do they will always be my least favourite aussie team. Go the Brumbies, Reds, Force in that order.

In an un-biased view, Im not sure why the tahs are getting so much flak about unattractive rugby, the brumbies havent been that much better (and im a big brumbies fan). I think both teams are just taking a long time to click, cos we all know barnes, giteau when on top of their games always provide us when entertaining rugby.

Im think everyone should stop critising the team, cos as a team they are winning (they have enough strong players to carry the ones underperforming to win games). So atm Id prefer to point out the individuals such as barnes and giteau (players in pivital roles) for not just having an off game but for playing CONTINUOUSLY shithouse! My expectations for the weekend is simply for these players to step up already and lead the team. If these players do step up its not optimistic to think that they will provide attractive rugby.

 

[Henry]

Re: Tahs v Blues

At the end of the day the Tahs aren't REALLY going that bad. Sure THERE have been some bad games and some close scratchy wins, but the point is they got THERE. Yes, it may not be incredibly exciting but I would prefer a 4 point win in a 14-10 scoring game rather than a 72-65 point loss. Yes its entertaining but the lions walked away with nothing. I understand that we may not reach the finals (again) based on the 5 point bonus point wins but if we don't win in the first place we wouldn't be ruing the missed opportunity of one more try etc.

The Tahs have luckily found themselves at 4th on the table but the game against the Blues will be a real litmus test for the side. The Tahs need to step up and prove that they are genuine contenders.

"For the Tahs fans hoping for some attractive rugby from the Tahs, you would be damn well confused" Well that is just ridiculous, we can't even HOPE that they will play attractive rugby? We seen this year that they are capable of it. The Bulls game, for example.

I know it was weeks ago but we were right to praise the Tahs after the Lions game. They put 70 points on the board where the 'Saders only managed 46. My point is you can't compare how teams fared against other teams week to week. Only the individual games can be looked at in isolation. Just because so and so beat so and so does not mean so and so will easily beat so and so the next week. If you catch my drift...

I think I forgot what i was talking about...

In conclusion.
Lets hope Horne is actually starting.
and
Mitchell is awesome.

 

[chriscullen]

Re: Tahs v Blues

Lee you are trying to bamboozle us with mathematics,clearly the tahs are the 4th best side and the way they are playing they should be on top,any side that can flog the lions one week and then fall over the line against the force is clearly dangerous. Other sides will take be wary of the schizophrenic tahs. This week the tahs will avenge the blues for the 1882 defeat where they were beaten 7-0. Barnes however needs to be dropped and be replaced by the evergreen nathan grey.

 

[Biffo]

Re: Tahs v Blues

I don't think their supporters are upset at the Tahs' boring play per se. If they were winning enough games to make the semis, the fans wouldn't give two stuffs of a black rat's anus how boring they were. I think the angst comes from the supporters being smarter than the Tahs' management, using their primary school arithmetic skills to understand that wins have varying impacts on the S14 ladder. A 14-10 win does not earn a bonus point, while conceding one to the opponent. A 30-23 win can be almost damaging - if, for example, the opponent gets 4 tries and the Tahs get 3 tries then the Tahs get 4 points and the opponents get 2. Results such as those two cases at home are very close to losses - in terms of the overall expected value (in competition points) of a home game they probably are losses.

The supporters know that the Tahs' "style" simply does not create enough margin (in competition points) over opponents for them to make the semis. The Tah supporters can see clearly that 2009 is repeating itself and the outcome being the same is increasingly likely.

Does the Tahs' management see the same problem? You there, Chris Hickey?

 

[matty_k]

Re: Tahs v Blues

Other sides will take be wary of the schizophrenic tahs.

It is a brilliant tactic. The opposition doesn't know how to prepare their defences for the game.

 

[Langthorne]

Re: Tahs v Blues

I don't think their supporters are upset at the Tahs' boring play per se. If they were winning enough games to make the semis, the fans wouldn't give two stuffs of a black rat's anus how boring they were. I think the angst comes from the supporters being smarter than the Tahs' management, using their primary school arithmetic skills to understand that wins have varying impacts on the S14 ladder. A 14-10 win does not earn a bonus point, while conceding one to the opponent. A 30-23 win can be almost damaging - if, for example, the opponent gets 4 tries and the Tahs get 3 tries then the Tahs get 4 points and the opponents get 2. Results such as those two cases at home are very close to losses - in terms of the overall expected value (in competition points) of a home game they probably are losses.

The supporters know that the Tahs' "style" simply does not create enough margin (in competition points) over opponents for them to make the semis. The Tah supporters can see clearly that 2009 is repeating itself and the outcome being the same is increasingly likely.

Does the Tahs' management see the same problem? You there, Chris Hickey?

Thanks for that Biffo, you have saved me having to type most of that myself - I agree, and I would add that the other frustration for me is knowing that the standard of play that gets a close win over the Reds, Sharks and Force (note their position on the competition table) will not get squat against the tops teams, say the Stormers and Bulls, AND that the Waratahs do in fact have the players capable of beating the top teams.

For WJs benefit - A bonus point win is what I want from the Waratahs. As I have said before, I don't care if the 4 tries are scored by the forwards grinding down the opposition, as long as they are there. Too often this season the 4 tries have not been there (because of the reasons discussed since week one).


The Blues are a pretty up and down team, and I think they are very vulnerable when faced with strong set pieces and fast tight forward play. If the game becomes open and broken they can be deadly, but get in their face and give them no room and they will struggle.

 

[Groucho]

Re: Tahs v Blues

have read that baxter and jowitt are recovered from injury, but palu may still be in doubt with his bum hammy.

Bum hammy? I always thought the hammy was lower than that.