Waratahs 2017

[fatprop]

Check out where Norths have finished in the years before their title - valiant strugglers. Hardly part of the ruling class in NSW Rugby in the last 30 years. Not like those just over the water.

I wonder if anyone else actually listens to the G&G podcast. If they had, they would have listened Ben Darwin's analytics on success.

Why do players get selected more often from the better teams, because they are the better teams. Success breeds success, players want play for them whether they be clubs or schools. And known combinations are key to getting that head start (So the Tahs and Reds are at a disadvantage because their players are split between a couple of NRC teams whilst, the Ponies, Force and Rebels have the ability to build combinations and structures)

Why have Uni been one providing so many players, because they have the best, most consistent program. The Norths coach before the game even said on Saturday he was trying to pry Uni 3rd graders from the system for his squad.

Now Norths are seeing success and their players are being picked up.

Why do the good successful rugby schools get their players picked, because good players want to go and be part of the program.

 

[I like to watch]

Whilst I think Gibson needs to go as it's very hard to see him turning the team around, the trouble is who do you replace him with?

Let's assume you sacked Gibson today and put one of the assistants in charge for the rest of the season. Nathan Grey is under a ton of pressure at both Super Rugby and Wallaby level as defence coach which is struggling to contain points.

Then you've got Cameron Blades whose scrum just got towelled up by the worst scrum in South Africa. We might have been missing Sekope Kepu but the remaining players can't perform that poorly. Our lineout is average and our breakdown work is woeful. The number of times we fail to secure our own ball when we're on the front foot is startling.

So certainly you have to look for a new coach for next season and that search should be already underway, but if you sack Gibson now, who the hell do you replace him with?

Yep, lets put it in perspective, this is not a Bill P sort of fuckup, where you want him out of the building now.
It's disappointing, and you don't renew him.
Replacing him mid season with whoever is available ATM, probably has more downside than upside.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yep, lets put it in perspective, this is not a Bill P sort of fuckup, where you want him out of the building now.
It's disappointing, and you don't renew him.
Replacing him mid season with whoever is available ATM, probably has more downside than upside.

The only option if you sacked him now is to replace him with one of the assistants which I outlined the problems of above.

Certainly they need to start looking now though. With the Northern Hemisphere season about to finish there will be coaches who are either available or can be convinced to sign elsewhere.

 

[I like to watch]

A 'worldwide search' could bring up some interesting options.
Don't the Swans & Roosters share the carpark with the Tahs?

 

[Twoilms]

I wonder if anyone else actually listens to the G&G podcast. If they had, they would have listened Ben Darwin's analytics on success.

Why do players get selected more often from the better teams, because they are the better teams. Success breeds success, players want play for them whether they be clubs or schools. And known combinations are key to getting that head start (So the Tahs and Reds are at a disadvantage because their players are split between a couple of NRC teams whilst, the Ponies, Force and Rebels have the ability to build combinations and structures)

Ben Darwin's research was certainly very interesting anecdotally. I havn't read any research papers or the like produced by his organization but i would temper the enthusiasm for his explanation by pointing out that his evidence was very selective.

For example, to counter his argument you could point to the great success of the Oakland Athletic baseball team and 'sabermetrics', which was quickly adopted by a wide variety of the more successful teams such as the Yankees, Red Sox etc. This approach was purely a statistical evaluation of a player, and ignored qualitative assessments of the player as whole (which would include a psychological assessment).

He also talked about the German national team and how it won the world cup drawing the majority of its players from Bayern Munich, and to a lesser extent Borussia Dortmund. He fails to mention the many times Brazil have won the World Cup despite a majority of it's players not even playing in Brazil let alone the same team.

Interesting but to be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

[gowaratahs]

Yep, lets put it in perspective, this is not a Bill P sort of fuckup, where you want him out of the building now.
It's disappointing, and you don't renew him.
Replacing him mid season with whoever is available ATM, probably has more downside than upside.

Tahs have oodles of talent, poor attitude and no motivation.

Give Alan Jones a short term gig to remind them who's boss.

And wash my mouth out... can't believe I even thought it...

 

[wamberal]

Keep Jones away from them. And forget about short-term gigs. What they need is a rev up from a former player they respect


I am wracking my brains trying to think who is today's equivalent of Dave Brockhoff.



They can learn nothing from an overblown radio announcer.

 

[GTPIH]

Miller wasn't in a 20's program in '15 or '16, so he's invisible.

The Tahs preferred to sign one from this pathway.

Miller on one leg would run rings around him.

Miller was born in 1993 so was only 20's eligible in 2012 and 2013 (he didn't make the team but I get your point). He did play schoolboys and IIRC he won the golden boot v NZ in 2011 and then played 7's for a few years, so he was in the pathway at some stage

 

[I like to watch]

My point was that if you are not on the pathway, or a very recent graduate, then you become tainted goods.
The attention then is solely focused on the new shiny toys in the current programs.

 

[Froggy]

I really don't think the recruitment, or the private school, strong club dominance is at the root of the problem. As to recruitment, I watched the NRC pretty closely, and I don't think many of the stand-outs were overlooked by one franchise or another, and in fact some of the new recruits (Gordon, Hanigan) have been among the Tahs best. Likewise, while a broader base, both at school and club level would be great, what we have is no different to what we have always had, in 2014 when the Tahs won, and the beginning of this century when the Wallabies dominated all before them.

The problem is two-fold, basic skill level, and motivation. The inability to catch and pass under any sort of pressure, the inability to scrummage at this level, why. The same people were catching and passing effectively at NRC level, so the basic skill is there, just the ability to execute these skills at the next level up.

Motivation is about doing more than just the job assigned to you. It's busting a gut to get there, to back up, to cover defend, to clean out, to follow a kick, even though it may technically be someone else's job. This what the NZ sides do so well, and we don't. And it is the motivation to maintain your concentration and focus, even when you're stuffed.

This comes down to coaching, but not so much game plan stuff as man management. That is where Cheika made a difference to the Tahs, and Macqueen to the Wallabies, and it would seem Jones to the Poms. This is what Hooper is talking about (rightly) when he talks about people wanting to be there. But there don't seem to be many with Hooper's desperation, certainly not in the Tahs.

I agree with some here, no value in sacking Gibson now without an obvious replacement, however this is his task for the rest of the season, and if he can't achieve it (to some extent anyhow) he has to go.

 

[fatprop]

The pathway wasn't a problem when we won the comp or when we won the RWC

 

[Gnostic]

The pathway wasn't a problem when we won the comp or when we won the RWC

Winning the Super Rugby with the Reds and the Tahs have to be seen for what they are the stars aligning with the bounce for a change of coach and system which had some basics the year before. Despite in both cases the majority of the squads being retained neither side performed the next year, unlike the NZ sides which have won the title even if they didn't back up and win the following year they were competitive.

Won the RWC in 1999 with players that all came through a far different structure, Managed to reach the final in 2003 with a core of players that learnt the craft from the last of those old stagers and it has been downhill since then except for the 2015 RWC which they outperformed but also had that new coach jump in performance. Last year was back to the statistical average and the skills execution performance.

 

[Micheal]

Winning the Super Rugby with the Reds and the Tahs have to be seen for what they are the stars aligning with the bounce for a change of coach and system which had some basics the year before. Despite in both cases the majority of the squads being retained neither side performed the next year, unlike the NZ sides which have won the title even if they didn't back up and win the following year they were competitive.

I'm not sure if thats a fair assessment.

In 2015 the Waratahs had the equal second most amount of regular season victories, and were 3rd in terms of overall competition points.

The Reds likewise had the 3rd amount of regular competition victories in 2012.

I'd say thats "performing" and being "competitive". Lets not rewrite history simply because everythings fucked today.

 

[Gnostic]

I'm not sure if thats a fair assessment.



In 2015 the Waratahs had the equal second most amount of regular season victories, and were 3rd in terms of overall competition points.



The Reds likewise had the 3rd amount of regular competition victories in 2012.



I'd say thats "performing" and being "competitive". Lets not rewrite history simply because everythings fucked today.

They came 2nd on the table due to the stupid conference winners set up. That had a PD of +96 (which they'd be dreaming of now) but really third.

No a re-writing of history, but performance clearly declined in 2015 when compared to 2014, especially in terms of defence with 41 tries against the worst of any of the finalists.

2015 Super Rugby standings

​

Overall standings
PosTeamPWDLPFPAPDTFTATBLBPts
1

Hurricanes​

16 14 0 2 458 288 +170 58 31 9 1 66
2

Waratahs​

16 11 0 5 409 313 +96 50 41 5 3 52
3

Stormers​

16 10 1 5 373 323 +50 32 35 2 1 45
4

Highlanders​

16 11 0 5 450 333 +117 54 40 6 3 53
5

Chiefs​

16 10 0 6 372 299 +73 40 27 4 4 48
6

Brumbies​

16 9 0 7 369 261 +108 45 21 6 5 47
7

Crusaders​

16 9 0 7 481 338 +143 56 39 8 2 46
8

Lions​

16 9 1 6 342 364 −22 33 41 2 2 42
9

Bulls​

16 7 0 9 397 388 +9 37 39 4 6 38
10

Rebels​

16 7 0 9 319 354 −35 35 42 3 5 36
11

Sharks​

16 7 0 9 338 401 −63 37 43 3 3 34
12

Cheetahs​

16 5 0 11 357 531 −174 44 65 4 2 26
13

Reds​

16 4 0 12 247 434 −187 32 53 3 3 22
14

Blues​

16 3 0 13 282 428 −146 29 50 2 6 20
15

Force​

16 3 0 13 245 384 −139 28 43 3 4 19

​

 

[Blackadder]

Tahs board back Gibson

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...rman-and-chief-executive-20170424-gvr2z7.html

Please tell me this is all show

 

[I like to watch]

The pathway wasn't a problem when we won the comp or when we won the RWC

We didn't win because the pathway produced a winning squad.
Our best player that year was either Izzy or jackpot.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Just what every coach with a two from eight season wants to hear:

"Kiwi coach Daryl Gibson has Waratahs' board's 'full support' despite Super Rugby struggles"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ds-full-support-despite-super-rugby-struggles

 

[fatprop]

We didn't win because the pathway produced a winning squad.
Our best player that year was either Izzy or jackpot.

Really? The rest of the squad (and the coach) had nothing to do with it?

I suggest that is rubbish

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Whilst I think Gibson needs to go as it's very hard to see him turning the team around, the trouble is who do you replace him with?

Let's assume you sacked Gibson today and put one of the assistants in charge for the rest of the season. Nathan Grey is under a ton of pressure at both Super Rugby and Wallaby level as defence coach which is struggling to contain points.

Then you've got Cameron Blades whose scrum just got towelled up by the worst scrum in South Africa. We might have been missing Sekope Kepu but the remaining players can't perform that poorly. Our lineout is average and our breakdown work is woeful. The number of times we fail to secure our own ball when we're on the front foot is startling.

So certainly you have to look for a new coach for next season and that search should be already underway, but if you sack Gibson now, who the hell do you replace him with?

If gets worse sacking Gibson may be an option before season is out as how often do we see teams show some short term improvement after this happens. But unlikely to see Gibson sacked at this point due more to not wanting to add more drama being played out in the press and yes fear by those who make the decision that things only get worse. Ability to make brave and big decisions in current environment very low given low credibility of rugby management and administration in this country. So they will wait for end of season and use end of season review process to justify jettisoning Gibson so they can say they followed due process to cover their arse if replacement they pick fails.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Dave Beat]

That's exactly why Hooper was not signed by the tahs out of school: they had Waugh - who became a corrosive influence as a result of prolonged incumbency. Is history repeating?

George Smith to the Brumbies - how the hell did that happen.
Was it because the school he went to didnt even have ties?