Waratahs 2013

[Richo]

Evidence that a win in RSA was a KPI?

The only good that can come of such a thing is if the team commits to building towards 2013 via player development, not making more wins this year the only metric for success.

 

[Bruce Ross]

It's astonishing how ill-informed rugby journos in this town really are. Jamie Pandaram, lured across from the Herald to the Terror because he was so impressed by Rupert's straight-faced enunciation of News Ltd's Charter of Ethical Journalistic Standards, is no exception. When they don't know they just make things up. Consider this paragraph this morning:

The Waratahs can't qualify for the finals and have therefore failed in part to live up to [CEO Jason] Allen's 10:3:1 plan to attain 10,000 members, $10 million in commercial revenue, make the finals for three straight seasons and become the No.1 Super Rugby organisation by 2013.

Looking at Jamie's list you wouldn't have to be an actuary to compute that 10,000 members, $10 million commercial revenue, finals for 3 straight seasons, and No.1 Super organisation would be a 10:10:3:1 plan not a 10:3:1 plan. As the Septics would say, "Do the math, Jamie." If you've got two red Cuisenaire rods, a blue one and a green one, how many rods do you have, Jamie? Four, not three, Jamie you thick-head. Kids learnt things like that a whole lot quicker when teachers were allowed to clip the stupid ones around the ears just for being stupid.

So because Jamie could never count the change in his pocket he became a journo. And thus it was fairly easy for some prankster to pull his chain with a truly absurd and hilarious set of KPIs for the 'Tahs. And Jamie published them. It wouldn't have happened back in the day when newspapers actually used sub-editors.

Behind every good leg-pull there's an element of truth. Just so in this instance. Jason Allen does indeed have a 10:10:3:1 plan and here's how it's shaping up:

10 At least 10,000 people at each home game. So far so good but there's a bit of nervousness about the run home.

10 Limit the season's losses to $10 million. Before a ball was kicked it was obvious that this one wasn't going to fly so Jason issued an instruction: "Don't waste time on the finances, team, everyone look around for at least something we can get right."

3 Win at least 3 games. Huge tick. We've won four already and might even jag another one.

1 Finish in front of at least one other Aussie team. Again some nervousness but still hopeful.

So we could end up with 3 out of 4 KPIs satisfied. That'll keep the board happy - that and a well-stocked drinks fridge.
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[Gnostic]

Interesting article again linking Chieka to the Tahs
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...-on-the-tahs-job/story-fn8ti7yn-1226366208630

Seems the jurnos at least are circling Foleys job, they must smell blood.

There will be ice in the realm of Beelzebub when Chieka comes home to the Tahs, as most with some knowledge of his historical relationship with the NSWRU could attest to. Though with climate change we should consider the possibly I suppose.

 

[waratahjesus]

You wont be surprised to learn that theres a reason I asked.
Its the reason I suggested in that other thread (or was it this one) that there is a danger of the Tahs squandering another generation of players.

The Tahs should not need to be looking for starting players. A properly organised talent identification and development program, given the proximity to the biggest rugby nursery in Oz, would have blokes ready to step up in each position - Exhibit 1: The Crusaders - the best 5/8 in the world goes down and they immediately have access to a bloke who, within a few short weeks everyone is saying may keep DC out of the ABs....that wont happen of course but they do it across the team - 7, 9, 15 wherever the problem arises.

So for 2013 the Tahs either admit defeat and wait for the young blokes to develop without throwing them in the deep end too early or they throw them in the deep end too early and squander the next generation. There needs to be a circuit breaker between the culture of loss and defensiveness in relation to all and any criticism and a new culture of victory and openness with the public. Get rid of the team v the doubters mentality: it has not worked.

I favour the first course which actually means finding players ready to start....the alternative is to not get rid of the blokes who are already starting - come clean with the fans and tell them 2013 is a development year BUT tell them what the plan is - a look to the medium term future instead of rearranging the deckchairs, often mid season, and then sacking/not renewing the coach at the end of the season. Of course the staff in this arrangement have to be confident that they will be supported and wont lose their jobs due to lack of results.

The differences between my plan and all prior approaches are:
(1) its a plan;
(2)it involves taking the "fans" and the media into your confidence, bringing them inside the tent and making it a bit more like a tribal team. Tell them there needs to be a season in which to stabilise the progression of the young blokes. I actually think that if the Tahs took this course there would be no booing and the fans would take the view "well at least we now know what is going on - lets get behind it".
The past approach bears a marked similarity to the political discourse in this country - problem? what problem?

Look I don't disagree, transparency would certainly dull the conspiracy I complain about so it would work for both of us.

One things though. NSW rugby will never have access to there entire area as development for the Tahs again, having only 30 spots is restrictive to being able to develop hgh numbers of players in A professional way and hang onto them. If we sign 5 18 year olds to two year deals, say 3 of them develop into starting players we then have to make calls as ter franchises circle, I'm not sure how a team gets a production line going in the current ARU set up, like the reds, success will result in players leaving.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

One things though. NSW rugby will never have access to there entire area as development for the Tahs again, having only 30 spots is restrictive to being able to develop hgh numbers of players in A professional way and hang onto them. If we sign 5 18 year olds to two year deals, say 3 of them develop into starting players we then have to make calls as ter franchises circle, I'm not sure how a team gets a production line going in the current ARU set up, like the reds, success will result in players leaving.

I'm not one of those who says that every NSW born and bred player who makes his mark at another province is a black mark for the Tahs.
But I'm not sure they get the best blokes often enough to put it down to the inevitable restriction on who they can't and can sign. We've been through that so we don't need to rehash it.
Since we agree on some transparency - how come they feel unable to have this conversation with their supporters in which they admit that things have not been good and that it will take a sea change in culture and say "here's the blue print"....even an old cynic like me would be prepared to opt in to that if i was told how it would work.
Hell, the thought of the prospect excites me.

 

[waratahjesus]

I think they tried with the fan forum to open dialogue but when people bash something instead of tacking the tme to ask constructive and thought out questions they are only going to get defensive answers.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

the only 2 potential advantages the tahs have over other provinces in relation to the depth of rugby talent in NSW schools is that many of these guys would have been tahs fans as kids, and have a dream of playing in a sky blue shirt. The other is that they can stay close to home. Every team has scouts, and there is noone going through the rugby ranks who is not visable to the other franchises just because they are playing in Sydney.

To counter this, think of your average 17-18yo kid now, and offer him an opportunity to travel and live in a different part of the country without parental supevision, and offer them an earlier start in the team ranks, and this advantage can (in the minds of some young players) become a disadvantage. Couple that to he constant media reporting in Sydney that the Tahs are a basket case, and there would be a proportion of the Rugby Talent that would prefer to play for an alternate franchise.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think they tried with the fan forum to open dialogue but when people bash something instead of tacking the tme to ask constructive and thought out questions they are only going to get defensive answers.

What Im suggesting is them coming to us with the blue print instead of "listening" and then not changing.
This is, I think, where we part company: no one at Tahland thinks this is a systemic/culture issue.

 

[waratahjesus]

What Im suggesting is them coming to us with the blue print instead of "listening" and then not changing.
This is, I think, where we part company: no one at Tahland thinks this is a systemic/culture issue.

This is my point, is what they are listening to constructive or is it rants telling them there doing everything wrong. Cos the later is resulting in defensive attitudes that affect communication negatively and prevent what you want from happening.

 

[I like to watch]

WJ, they turned up at the fan forum with flip charts and statistics, trying very nicely to say to the fans that their perceptions are wrong.
They showed how the tahs were a try scoring machine, who statistically kicked less and passed more than those imposters in red jerseys.
They have listened to reasoned arguments,and prepared slide shows to argue against the points being made, and to validate what they are doing.
There is no intention to change anything.
They are spin doctors who have no intention of changing the status quo.

 

[Braveheart81]

Personally I think some of the disgruntled fans are morons though.

There have been plenty of times in games when the Tahs have had an easily kickable penalty either early in the game or when the scores were close and when they opt to take the kick at goal, sections of the crowd boo.

It is moments like these that make me think that listening to the fans saying they should run the ball more is not always sensible. They have to make smart rugby decisions on the field and fans should encourage it.

I am completely in agreement that they need to get rid of aimless kicking and rugby in general is about taking smart options. Run the ball when the opportunity is there and likewise, kick the ball when there is an opportunity to make a good kick. Sometimes fans seem to forget that part of rugby is kicking and accumulating points and the team shouldn't be discouraged from taking sensible options.

 

[waratahjesus]

WJ, they turned up at the fan forum with flip charts and statistics, trying very nicely to say to the fans that their perceptions are wrong.
They showed how the tahs were a try scoring machine, who statistically kicked less and passed more than those imposters in red jerseys.
They have listened to reasoned arguments,and prepared slide shows to argue against the points being made, and to validate what they are doing.
There is no intention to change anything.
They are spin doctors who have no intention of changing the status quo.

I've watched the entire fan forum, They did present statistics, they also talked about alot of other stuff that wasn't reported cos it doesn't back up the negative assessment the media and fans like yourself have taken to. The truth is in the middle as it always is.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

This is my point, is what they are listening to constructive or is it rants telling them there doing everything wrong. Cos the later is resulting in defensive attitudes that affect communication negatively and prevent what you want from happening.

They're supposed to be the experts.
They don't come clean by saying this is our plan, these are our problems, this is how we plan to get from here to there.
Instead they have a venting session the only purpose of which is to make it feel like the fans had their say: it didn't work - season 2012 proves that.
Its really not for the fans to give them ideas - if they had workable one they'd be working in Tahland.

Let the Tahs hold a forum, or if that is thought likely to degenerate into abuse, let them release a manifesto which clearly states:
1. The present structure and the responsibilities of those within it;
2. What the Tahs think are the reasons for 2012 and for all their sub par seasons back to, say 2008 or 2005.
3. What they perceive to be the issues needing to be addressed within the organisation which will address the reasons given in (2).
4. What they plan to do about those issues, how long they think that will take and what the think will be the test of whether they have succeeded - so that they can be measured against what they hoped to achieve.
5. What they think is the optimum structure for the club/team and how they are going to get to that structure.
6. how they plan to create a dynasty of players and officials who can nurture the progress they achieve.

I do not see winning the s. 15 as the test of their success, by the way.

 

[wamberal]

Do some of you buggers seriously expect the Waratahs to win the competition every year? Make the semis every year? And play exciting, adventurous rugby all the time?


Deary me. The bar is set very, very high indeed.

 

[I like to watch]

Because the tah's have such a rich history of regularly winning the comp?
I don't think so.
Some have an issue with the style of play, some with the execution, some with tactics, some with the lack of desire in the closing minutes.
Personally I have an issue with the refusal to admit any of these things are a problem.
I read the article on Leicester on another thread.That's what I want in the Tahs, some old fashioned mongrel and never give up mentality.
I want to see Foley rip some doors off hinges, or throw some stuff in the coaches box. I think that sort of stuff is unacceptable, but I want to see that losing shits him.
ATM all I see are glib explanations.

 

[Bruce Ross]

There are massive systemic problems at the 'Tahs which lend weight to the old adage that a fish rots from the head down, but let's look for constructive ideas.

For a number of years I have been advocating that the 'Tahs should adopt a strict policy of signing only those players who have been developed in New South Wales. This is the way to begin to develop the sort of tribalism that comes naturally to those who because of cruel misfortune, lack of self confidence and/or belief in their own ability continue to live in the lesser states. They need to cling to something to make sense of their often empty lives and so they gravitate to football. An example of how obsessed they can become was the fair maiden at a mungo game at Suncorp who was so engrossed in the play that she refused to heed the call of nature, reasoning that sitting in a pool of her own making was a small price to pay for continuing to cheer on her team. I've gone off the track somewhat.

Back to the concept of recruiting only New South Wales products. Think of a kid who might grow up in a country town, goes to local schools or goes to the city to a boarding school, plays for a junior club and then a senior club, then signs for the Waratahs and lives in a Sydney suburb. As a result that young player has a whole network of people who knew him or know him and are therefore keenly interested in his success. It has been observed that most people don't follow teams, they follow players. Instead of focussing on blow-ins the Waratahs should mine the rich seam of emerging talent in this state.
.

 

[Richo]

Personally I think some of the disgruntled fans are morons though.

There have been plenty of times in games when the Tahs have had an easily kickable penalty either early in the game or when the scores were close and when they opt to take the kick at goal, sections of the crowd boo.

It is moments like these that make me think that listening to the fans saying they should run the ball more is not always sensible. They have to make smart rugby decisions on the field and fans should encourage it.

I am completely in agreement that they need to get rid of aimless kicking and rugby in general is about taking smart options. Run the ball when the opportunity is there and likewise, kick the ball when there is an opportunity to make a good kick. Sometimes fans seem to forget that part of rugby is kicking and accumulating points and the team shouldn't be discouraged from taking sensible options.

After the fan forum, numerous people around us groaned and moaned with EVERY kick, as if kicking weren't a crucial part of rugby. A sizable chunk of the paying public fits that kind of category. What's the point of listening to what they think?

 

[TOCC]

There are massive systemic problems at the 'Tahs which lend weight to the old adage that a fish rots from the head down, but let's look for constructive ideas.

For a number of years I have been advocating that the 'Tahs should adopt a strict policy of signing only those players who have been developed in New South Wales. This is the way to begin to develop the sort of tribalism that comes naturally to those who because of cruel misfortune, lack of self confidence and/or belief in their own ability continue to live in the lesser states. They need to cling to something to make sense of their often empty lives and so they gravitate to football. An example of how obsessed they can become was the fair maiden at a mungo game at Suncorp who was so engrossed in the play that she refused to heed the call of nature, reasoning that sitting in a pool of her own making was a small price to pay for continuing to cheer on her team. I've gone off the track somewhat.

Back to the concept of recruiting only New South Wales products. Think of a kid who might grow up in a country town, goes to local schools or goes to the city to a boarding school, plays for a junior club and then a senior club, then signs for the Waratahs and lives in a Sydney suburb. As a result that young player has a whole network of people who knew him or know him and are therefore keenly interested in his success. It has been observed that most people don't follow teams, they follow players. Instead of focussing on blow-ins the Waratahs should mine the rich seam of emerging talent in this state.
.

I agree wholeheartedly, even if its not a policy it should be a very high priority, only bypassed due to absolute necessity..

I would love QLD to follow a similar plan, and in recent years they mostly have..
With McDuling and Beau Robinson been the only 2 non-queenslanders signed in the past 24months.

 

[tigerland12]

Heard word that Matt Lucas has signed a 2 year deal. He's Ben Lucas' little brother, and the same mould of player except more of a halfback then 10. Plays for Sunnnybank (QLD), National Academy and the 7's whilst he will go on his second Aus u20's trip later.

 

[rugbysmartarse]

Where did you hear that tiger? Great news if true, has been in good touch in the sevens.