Waratahs 2013

[Gnostic]

Whether or not the players are wallabies or have been in the past is irrelevant, especially given that a majority (maybe a slim majority) believe that most of the Tahs that gained selection last year did not deserve to be there on form and perhaps haven't deserved it for a few years. That says more about Deans selection practices than anything else and that subject has received some degree of debate through Australia and some overseas.

The facts are that players should be selected for a Team based around individual skills complimenting each other AND the game plan that is to be played. As I postulated earlier in this thread the current Tahs side was built to execute "plan A" based around set piece dominance and forward strength to play a narrow conservative game plan with little thought to attacking back play of their own creation. Any back play was from broken play or counter attack by one or two players. It wasn't constructed.

Now the Tahs are trying to play "Plan B" with a team that has combined strengths aimed at "Plan A". Chieka doesn't have the luxury of reverting to Plan A, it didn't work anyway and actively drove fans from the game, so we are left with a squad that he didn't pick playing a game that it isn't suited to and perhaps isn't fit enough to execute.

Chieka is severely limited in the team he can choose regardless of if they are performing or not. It is like taking a Group A rally car to a Formula 1 race and trying to compete. They are designed for different things and that is even before we question the commitment, fitness and skill levels of some of those in the squad. This is why I say Chieka needs another year to make his mark on the squad and then we will see what he can get out of the side.

 

[Richo]

LOL...no-one compares to Michael!

Time will tell I suppose but I just don't think this squad is as bad as some people are making it out to be. It makes me think about what will happen to Jamie Joseph if the Highlanders don't improve pretty quickly.

I don't think it's a bad squad at all. But it is a squad with a history of problems with fitness and application. I also think the shift in playing style is substantial and that most of the senior players had longer-than-ideal layoffs after the EOYT. By contrast, Jake White -- with very few Wallabies in his set-up -- had a much longer pre-season in his first year.

Btw, I'm not trying to make excuses for Cheika per se. I just think it's far too early to be rushing to any sort of judgment given the various contextual factors at play.

 

[Dave Beat]

I don't think it's a bad squad at all. But it is a squad with a history of problems with fitness and application. I also think the shift in playing style is substantial and that most of the senior players had longer-than-ideal layoffs after the EOYT. By contrast, Jake White -- with very few Wallabies in his set-up -- had a much longer pre-season in his first year.

Btw, I'm not trying to make excuses for Cheika per se. I just think it's far too early to be rushing to any sort of judgment given the various contextual factors at play.

Chieka came on board and had just as much time as white did for the Pre Season.

I see 2 problems
1. the style of rugby being coached for the last 3 - 4 years for years, unfortunately Deans coached a similar style. We are Brainwashed.
2. our 12, and 13, and thats impacting the 11, 14 & 15.

Look at the Brumbies, their 9, 10, 12, 13, 11, 15 are all uncapped (and Rathbone has been out of the game for a while) - but they are aware of the "game", they have "vision".

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't think it's a bad squad at all. But it is a squad with a history of problems with fitness and application. I also think the shift in playing style is substantial and that most of the senior players had longer-than-ideal layoffs after the EOYT. By contrast, Jake White -- with very few Wallabies in his set-up -- had a much longer pre-season in his first year.

Btw, I'm not trying to make excuses for Cheika per se. I just think it's far too early to be rushing to any sort of judgment given the various contextual factors at play.

I agree.
But -
As I've said before, he's not going to be able to replace everyone he would want to, for a couple of reasons.
He is walking a tightrope: he will have to sign some current Tahs that do not suit him because more than likely there just aren't going to be enough players on the market for a total clean out.
Which leads to an interesting question: who is available and should be signed? No idea and it would be a massive task to find out.
Is he justified in just going for the next best Shute shield player and discarding the incumbent who does not suit his plan?
The signing of Phipps indicates how thin the tightrope is and that Cheika knows it!
And see Bruce Ross comments in the match thread Cheetahs v Tahs.
I should declare now that I'm not so sure about this idea that the plan requires anything other than footballers - I.e. blokes with some rugby skills and brains. There are very few of them that com on the market because everyone wants them.


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[Dave Beat]

I agree.
But -
As I've said before, he's not going to be able to replace everyone he would want to, for a couple of reasons. He can and he should, last year through injury players were picked from the Shute Shield, why cant he do the same because of form. Unfortunately the Shute doesnt start until April.
He is walking a tightrope: he will have to sign some current Tahs that do not suit him because more than likely there just aren't going to be enough players on the market for a total clean out. Easiest way to truely find out is the above, it may prevent loosing quality players to other provinces (history).
Which leads to an interesting question: who is available and should be signed? No idea and it would be a massive task to find out. If the acadamy games against the pacific island teams were played on a Sat or Sun we could then pass comment. They are played Mon - Fri when most people are at work
Is he justified in just going for the next best Shute shield player and discarding the incumbent who does not suit his plan? Yes to right, it may also provide the required kick up the arse.



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[Richo]

Chieka came on board and had just as much time as white did for the Pre Season.

Sorry, but that's just not correct. White started months earlier and had very few Wallabies away on EOYT, which meant he had more of his squad available much earlier. Maybe Cheika should be doing better, but lets at least get the facts straight.

Look, it's 4 games. The hand-wringing might be a little early, folks.

 

[Dave Beat]

Sorry, but that's just not correct. White started months earlier and had very few Wallabies away on EOYT, which meant he had more of his squad available much earlier. Maybe Cheika should be doing better, but lets at least get the facts straight.

Look, it's 4 games. The hand-wringing might be a little early, folks.

Thanks for the correction Richo, it was an estimate as I can remember Cheika having them working hard mid Oct - if White had 2 many extra months his Pre Season would have started befor the S15 2012 final.
I also dont think I blamed it on the current coach, I blamed it on the historical coaches and game style.

1. History - the style of rugby being coached for the last 3 - 4 years for years, unfortunately Deans coached a similar style. We are Brainwashed.
2. Aust shortage in - our 12, and 13, and thats impacting the 11, 14 & 15.

We see very short glimpses of what Chieka is trying to play, hoping the short starts growing.

 

[BPC]

Sorry, but that's just not correct. White started months earlier and had very few Wallabies away on EOYT, which meant he had more of his squad available much earlier. Maybe Cheika should be doing better, but lets at least get the facts straight.

Look, it's 4 games. The hand-wringing might be a little early, folks.

It's never too early for Tah's fans to start wringing their hands.

 

[fatprop]

To me it is the errors that are killing the side, they are dropping catchable stuff and missing one on one tackles. We had 9 general play turnovers ie drop balls etc

Start to cut those out and we will do OK

 

[fatprop]

Thanks for the correction Richo, it was an estimate as I can remember Cheika having them working hard mid Oct - if White had 2 many extra months his Pre Season would have started befor the S15 2012 final.
I also dont think I blamed it on the current coach, I blamed it on the historical coaches and game style.

1. History - the style of rugby being coached for the last 3 - 4 years for years, unfortunately Deans coached a similar style. We are Brainwashed.
2. Aust shortage in - our 12, and 13, and thats impacting the 11, 14 & 15.

We see very short glimpses of what Chieka is trying to play, hoping the short starts growing.

Look I disagree, specifically the Tahs our centres are fine, they aren't terrible, but they can play better (as I said before errors are the issue); and as for 13s who pass more? Like who?

Here is a list of all the other 13s in the comp, just which one is the unselfish 13 who doesn't 95% of the time tuck it up under the arm and go for it. Even Smith does it.

Kuridrani, Jordaan, Harris, Stanley, Fruean, Engelbrecht, Cooke, Nanai-Williams, Sadie, Emery or Smith?

 

[louie]

What would infuriate me if i was Tahs fans about Chieka is how unfit the Tahs look.

 

[Braveheart81]

Realistically I don't think the inherited squad thing is much of an issue. We have an excellent squad on paper and whilst I am sure Cheika would have tinkered with it a bit if he got to oversee re-signings last season (and more specifically who wasn't re-signed), I can only see him changing a couple of players.

I think there will be a bigger turnover at the end of this season when many players are off contract and some will certainly go overseas because they're getting to that stage of their career and Cheika will be able to hopefully retain the few key players he really wants and recruit some new ones.

Until he gets to know the players and see how they train and how well he can coach them to do what he wants them to do, it would be hard for any coach to decide which players they don't want just looking at a team list. You're not likely to turn down any Wallabies without having spent a lot of time training with them to get to know them as people.

 

[Swat]

Out of curiosity, who would you guys get rid of and who would you look at bringing in? Poaching from other Super Franchises? New Schoolboy sensations? Club workhorses?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ I think that a robust discussion on that matter has started on the Waratahs 2014 thread.

 

[Langthorne]

A couple of issues the injury to Barnes highlights:

- we have a lack of place kicking depth (I presume) as McKibbon seems to be retained mainly for this purpose (or else our scrum half depth is really piss poor)

- we have a lack of players who can execute an accurate kick restart. With Barnes on, we saw a little of what Folau could do as a weapon contesting at the restart (with accurate kicking, it would be very hard to combat his leap and AFL catch without doing the same thing. He could also be used to contest the midfield bomb a la the Bulls in their pomp). Once Foley took over the restarts we did not contest or threaten even once.

To relate this to the current discussion, Cheika really needs to balance playing 'his way' with playing the way that gets the most out of the players - he may prefer ball in hand rugby, but he is missing a trick if he doesn't exploit all the options he has at his disposal.

 

[fatprop]

Out of curiosity, who would you guys get rid of and who would you look at bringing in? Poaching from other Super Franchises? New Schoolboy sensations? Club workhorses?

Kepu - a good young THP
S Timani - a mobile athletic lock
Peterson - a mobile athletic lock
Hart - Wessells
McKibbon - Phipps
Carter - Apo Latunipulu
Horne - dunno
Mitchell - dunno
maybe Folau - dunno

 

[Braveheart81]

Kepu - a good young THP
S Timani - a mobile athletic lock
Peterson - a mobile athletic lock
Hart - Wessells
McKibbon - Phipps
Carter - Apo Latunipulu
Horne - dunno
Mitchell - dunno
maybe Folau - dunno

I pretty much agree with all these. I would have kept Sitaleki Timani if he didn't want to chase Euros in France.

I agree that next year our halfbacks should be Phipps/Lucas/Wessels.

I would keep Kepu if he is content being our third choice prop. He's only 27 which is young for a prop and has a lot of experience. He's a lot better player than he is showing this season. Robbo is an absolute must to hold on to though. We'll be playing 23 man sides next year so having good prop depth is critical.

I have always been a Berrick Barnes fan but I would be happy to see him leave next seaon (and for Kurtley Beale to return). Barnes has been injury prone and has always been a better test player than Super Rugby player.

I would also like to keep Folau. I think he will be a genuine star by next year.

 

[fatprop]

^^ re Folau

He is on big money and has done nothing so far, "if" we have a budget, he ain't contributing to the level his wage requires, same with Kepu

Barnes for Beale? sure, an upgrade, but again he is a 15 who can play 10

 

[Braveheart81]

^^ re Folau

He is on big money and has done nothing so far, "if" we have a budget, he ain't contributing to the level his wage requires, same with Kepu

Barnes for Beale? sure, an upgrade, but again he is a 15 who can play 10

I think Beale is an excellent 10. He was our 10 when we last made the final.

I think that Foley is the guy to play 10 going forward but I'd be very happy to have Beale back in the side. He's a better 10 than Barnes is at test or super rugby level.

Folau isn't on that big money from the Tahs. If the ARU wants to keep paying him, we should be happy to keep him.

Kepu could easily find himself without an ARU contract at the end of the season. Sure he's going to be on solid money from the Tahs but when he's playing well he is absolutely worth it. Especially next year when we have four props in every matchday 23. I think there are far more decent backs running around that won't cost the Earth than there are props, particularly THP.

Tom Carter is getting past it and Barnes is highly likely to go to Japan. I think 12 is the most crucial position we have to recruit for. This is the place where I'd be looking to spend money on poaching someone. Maybe Ben Tapuai as I think he is off contract.

I like the look of the following backline for next season.

Phipps/Lucas
Foley
Betham
New 12
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Turner/Kingston
Folau/Kingston
Beale

I think Volavola is going to become a big asset but I'm not sure where yet. He is currently only an attacking player. His defence is terrible and his decision making is poor when the best option isn't to attack. I think he is a bench option for this season to come on for impact in the last half hour and depending on his development he might be a starting player next year if he learns how to tackle.

 

[RoffsChoice]

Barnes and Giteau were interchangeable as the best 12 in the country from 2009 to 2011, and we just haven't played him there since. If Cheika starts playing Barnes at 12 and he does well, not only would he bring form to the backline (Eg. v France, v England, v Wales last year), but he could be demanding the gold 12.