Waratahs 2013

[Richo]

Ahem. Folau. Ahem.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the Tahs are going to lose several expensive players at the end of the year which will give them some cash to recruit established players.

If there are a few targets at other franchises (like Ben Tapuai for example), I'd imagine the Tahs will be in a position to offer substantially more money than the Reds will be able to.

Of course it all depends on how many of the top players we lose however I think if you lost three (and possibly all four of) Barnes, Palu, Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) you'd have plenty of cash up your sleeve.

 

[JSRF10]

Ahem. Folau. Ahem.

Is Folau not financed by the ARU? I meant look overseas for a big name signing, I mean I doubt the Tahs could bring in someone like Nonu, BOD etc

 

[Hugh Jarse]

./...snip.../..
These are huge questions, i accept. If you could answer them you'd probably be a s15 coach.

Aren't we all?

 

[Hawko]

Although I was set against it a few weeks ago now is the time to give Folau a go at 13. He constantly gets his hands free in the tackle and is regularly beating the first man. The more we can get him the ball the more he'll create for others, I think if he sticks with rugby he is going to be a superstar.
We do run the risk of him being exposed there defensively but as I said before, the upside is too big not to try and its hardly as if he could do worse than how our centres have done this year.
12 is a problem at the moment given BB is confirmed out, but for the time being I'd move AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) into there however yet to be convinced by him this season.

If we move AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) from 13 to 12 then we are moving a player who rarely passes one channel closer to the ruck. That suits Foley-type gameplans but not Cheika-type gameplans. The most suitable player to play Cheika's attacking gameplan would be Volavola but the guy is a defensive nightmare. This week, against the Blues, I would use Carter or Horne because the Blues' big boppa backs need someone who can defend well. I'd try Volavola there off the bench only and late in the game.

Biggest issue is AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s form; he is looking very lacklustre so far and its hurting the men outside. Its not a great option, but bringing Turner in one and bringing back Mitchell to play wing with Betham might be a better option. Defence this week against the Blues will be a huge issue. The Bulls beat the Blues by blowing their forwards off the park and thereby negating the threat of their backs. We should have the cattle to do the same but we haven't yet shown that. Is Cliffy back yet, he would make a big difference?

A backline of Foley, Mitchell, Horne, Turner, Betham, Folau with a bench of Volavola and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) might be the best we can put up based on form so far. Barnes' six week lay-off will hurt us badly. He is an ideal 12 to play the Tahs gameplan.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think the Tahs are going to lose several expensive players at the end of the year which will give them some cash to recruit established players.

If there are a few targets at other franchises (like Ben Tapuai for example), I'd imagine the Tahs will be in a position to offer substantially more money than the Reds will be able to.

Of course it all depends on how many of the top players we lose however I think if you lost three (and possibly all four of) Barnes, Palu, Mitchell and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) you'd have plenty of cash up your sleeve.

Good point and worth evaluating in more detail BH - do we go for someone like Taps who will seek big $ or do we look at the younger crop that is local?
An example - 2 years ago Kyle Godwin wasnt seen, last year Aust U20, and a couple of games with the Force. This year at 21 he's been a starter and is showing some real potential - held his own against the Reds last weekend?
I'd like to see a good balance with old heads and youth.

Recent / Not so Recent years we've seen big spending with the Del, Lote, Rogers, Izzy, Vickerman, Elsom, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (maybe) and there may have been a few others??? Have we brought home any silverwhere.

Its going back some time, and yes times have changed - for an example - was it Rod Macqueen that brought through a young Kearns, Daly, McKenzie, pulled Tombs down from QLD, plucked Craig Wells from down south, and Rob Edgerton from knowwhere, and coached a very formidable side.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you could get Tapuai on a three year contract I absolutely would. He's 24 and coming into the prime of his career.

You've got to spend the dollars somewhere. I wouldn't make him the highest paid player at the franchise or anything ridiculous. There's no point paying above the odds for a player.

There are obviously players you want to keep and you'll have to offer them the money to stay but realistically it shouldn't be much more (if any more) than you're currently paying for a lot of them.

I don't think Tapuai would be able to demand any more money than Berrick Barnes is currently getting paid for example.

We'll no doubt be recruiting younger players that are local as well to make up the whole squad. There's no point paying over the top for Super Rugby debutants though. They want the opportunity at the base contract level. There will be plenty of spots to fill next season. It's not like we'll have the option of recruiting only stars or only new blood.

 

[Dave Beat]

If you could get Tapuai on a three year contract I absolutely would. He's 24 and coming into the prime of his career.

You've got to spend the dollars somewhere. I wouldn't make him the highest paid player at the franchise or anything ridiculous. There's no point paying above the odds for a player.

There are obviously players you want to keep and you'll have to offer them the money to stay but realistically it shouldn't be much more (if any more) than you're currently paying for a lot of them.

I don't think Tapuai would be able to demand any more money than Berrick Barnes is currently getting paid for example.

I'd sign Taps of BB.
I see more value in Barnes at full back

 

[Richo]

Is Folau not financed by the ARU? I meant look overseas for a big name signing, I mean I doubt the Tahs could bring in someone like Nonu, BOD etc

Ah, I see. I meant that the ARU is clearly not shy about making a splash in the right circumstances.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think it is just a result of the huge changes in the game since Larkham's day, actually. The players are fitter, faster, stronger, and bigger (particularly in the backs); the breakdown rules have changed everything; there is now far less room on the field because of far more intensive and well organised defensive systems.

Horan was a very gifted centre, but I am not sure that he was particularly smart. Burke was good at marshalling defenses, for sure. Mortlock? He ended up as a pretty one dimensional centre, IMHO. That is not to denigrate any of them, they were all outstanding Wallabies, but they played in a different era.

Cooper would have been an absolute sensation, had he been around 10 or 12 years ago.

I accept the game is different today, and defences seem to have tightened up considerably. But it is not necessarily true that today's backs are bigger than those in Bernie's day. Consider Mortlock, Burke, Roff, Latham, Herbert, Tune etc. All bigger than the current Wallabies' backs.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't think people are ignoring that question, they've just been asking it in a slightly different way: are the current players the right ones for Cheika? I think he has decided he wants to build a particular type of team, rather than cobble together what he can with the players he has. This season is about a) instituting a system and culture, and b) working out which of the current players will fit within that system and culture.

If all that means that Chieka doesn't agree with Deans' ideas about what it takes to be a Wallaby, then I think there is a promising future for the Tahs.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Look I disagree, specifically the Tahs our centres are fine, they aren't terrible, but they can play better (as I said before errors are the issue); and as for 13s who pass more? Like who?

Here is a list of all the other 13s in the comp, just which one is the unselfish 13 who doesn't 95% of the time tuck it up under the arm and go for it. Even Smith does it.

Kuridrani, Jordaan, Harris, Stanley, Fruean, Engelbrecht, Cooke, Nanai-Williams, Sadie, Emery or Smith?

Conrad Smith or Andrew Smith? I would venture that Andrew Smith passes the ball to his wingers many more times than do the Tahs' centres, but significantly, he does it when the winger is in a better position to advance the play.

 

[qwerty51]

Was just thinking about Burgess a bit and it's actually quite interesting when you look at the performance of the Waratahs when he came along. He came off the bench mid way through 2008 and played very well which started the team's run towards the finals and making the grand final. 2009 just missed out on the finals and 2010-11 made the finals again. 2012 he leaves and it all goes to shit.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Its going back some time, and yes times have changed - for an example - was it Rod Macqueen that brought through a young Kearns, Daly, McKenzie, pulled Tombs down from QLD, plucked Craig Wells from down south, and Rob Edgerton from knowwhere, and coached a very formidable side.

Mate you've got about 3 generations of player in there.
Kearns played for oz before nsw, iirc.
Tombs was behind Horan in QLD and given the friendship between Carson at norths and McQueen plus NSW mgr was a norths man I suspect that he was behind him coming down. Not to say Dwyer didn't try to talk him into going to Randwick, if he wanted test time.
Mckenzie was at Randwick coming up from Victoria.
Daly was a local from joeys, where he had been a breakaway.
Everton was at uni.
But all of them came here in the amateur era and when a coach like McQueen was enough.
$$$$$$ changed that somewhat.



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[Dave Beat]

Mate you've got about 3 generations of player in there.
Kearns played for oz before nsw, iirc.
Tombs was behind Horan in QLD and given the friendship between Carson at norths and McQueen plus NSW mgr was a norths man I suspect that he was behind him coming down. Not to say Dwyer didn't try to talk him into going to Randwick, if he wanted test time.
Mckenzie was at Randwick coming up from Victoria.
Daly was a local from joeys, where he had been a breakaway.
Everton was at uni.
But all of them came here in the amateur era and when a coach like McQueen was enough.
$$$$$$ changed that somewhat.



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Yes, but they all played in the same side in 1990, before the 91 World Cup. The point I was making was a keen I brought them together, not $, and not name.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yes, but they all played in the same side in 1990, before the 91 World Cup. The point I was making was a keen I brought them together, not $, and not name.

But thats because there were no dollars.
Now dollars rule.

 

[Dave Beat]

But thats because there were no dollars.
Now dollars rule.

I know that, you are missing my point. When Cronk, Slater, Smith, first joined the Storm they didn't have the name or the experience to command the $ they do now.
A keen eye picked them when they were young, and a good coach matured their talent

 

[mark_s]

Or

Was just thinking about Burgess a bit and it's actually quite interesting when you look at the performance of the Waratahs when he came along. He came off the bench mid way through 2008 and played very well which started the team's run towards the finals and making the grand final. 2009 just missed out on the finals and 2010-11 made the finals again. 2012 he leaves and it all goes to shit.

Or did it go to shit when Kurtley left?

 

[Braveheart81]

I know that, you are missing my point. When Cronk, Slater, Smith, first joined the Storm they didn't have the name or the experience to command the $ they do now.
A keen eye picked them when they were young, and a good coach matured their talent

When those players arrived at the Storm as young guys the Storm already had several international and State of Origin players.

Teams are a balance of experience and youth. The Tahs are likely to have many spots on their roster to fill next year and some of those will come with the ability to pay for seasoned professionals and some will call for recruiting young players with little or no Super Rugby experience.

Looking to sign a Wallaby from another franchise to fill a weak spot in the side doesn't mean you're neglecting to recruit young talent. Both should be happening.

Young players also learn from having quality experienced players around them both on the training paddock and in games.

 

[Dave Beat]

When those players arrived at the Storm as young guys the Storm already had several international and State of Origin players.

Teams are a balance of experience and youth. The Tahs are likely to have many spots on their roster to fill next year and some of those will come with the ability to pay for seasoned professionals and some will call for recruiting young players with little or no Super Rugby experience.

Looking to sign a Wallaby from another franchise to fill a weak spot in the side doesn't mean you're neglecting to recruit young talent. Both should be happening.

Young players also learn from having quality experienced players around them both on the training paddock and in games.

BH, that is exactly what I said above.
A good point and well worth evaluating further.
We need the right balance of youth, and old heads.