Waratahs 2013

[Braveheart81]

On the Foley/Barnes thing, they may well both be in the starting XV (probably will be), not sure if they'll be swapped around though. The Randwick way was always to keep players in position and bring the next best up, they knew the calls and what was expected in that position. We'll know more after trials - I can't wait.

Super Rugby is very different to club rugby though. They have to make do with a squad involving limited players. They also train as a squad which means players should be familiar with everything that is going on, not just what is expected from a specific position. Training in club rugby is very different because reserves will be more used to training with the lower team they play for on a weekly basis rather than the team above where they might come on as a reserve.

I suspect where BB plays will have an impact on Carter. It might end up Foley at 10, BB at 12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 15. That might stop BB kicking the ball.

You make it sound like the ineptitude of the Waratahs' backs last year was because Barnes kept kicking the ball. That was the least of their problems. The major problem was that with ball in hand they struggled to make the gain line all season. Whilst Barnes was 10 for a lot of the season and must be held accountable to a degree, I don't think the problem was because he was kicking it too much.

 

[Richo]

It strikes me that Cheika thinks strategically. In my view, developing Foley at 10 (or seeing if he can develop, at any rate) should be a priority. The Tahs desperately need a long-term solution at 10, and I don't think it's Berrick, unfortunately. He just doesn't play with the necessary dynamism for Super Rugby. I hope we see Barnes at 15, both because his positional play there is excellent and because he can move into a playmaking position when necessary. I also think that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s best position is 13 and that he should play there. If that means Horne has to earn the 12 or fight his way off the bench, so be it.

 

[Lindommer]

It'd be relevant if His Ancientness Lee Grant gave us a rundown on Horne's schoolboy performances at 12. The spot's there for the taking, Rob, grab it with both hands.

 

[Quick Hands]

Super Rugby is very different to club rugby though. They have to make do with a squad involving limited players. They also train as a squad which means players should be familiar with everything that is going on, not just what is expected from a specific position. Training in club rugby is very different because reserves will be more used to training with the lower team they play for on a weekly basis rather than the team above where they might come on as a reserve.



You make it sound like the ineptitude of the Waratahs' backs last year was because Barnes kept kicking the ball. That was the least of their problems. The major problem was that with ball in hand they struggled to make the gain line all season. Whilst Barnes was 10 for a lot of the season and must be held accountable to a degree, I don't think the problem was because he was kicking it too much.

You're right about different circumstances in club & super rugby, it's about philosophy though.

I'm not sure how you got the idea that my comment on Barnes' kicking in any way inferred that he bore sole or even major responsibility for the Waratahs performances. I didn't say that and I don't think that. The whole team and the coaching staff bear collective responsibilityfor Waratahs 2011 & 2012.

I think and have always thought that Barnes is class. His kicking increased after he came to the Waratahs which leads me to believe that either he was told to kick as part of the Hickey 'win ugly' strategy or he was always receiving the ball under pressure and had less time and space out wide. It seems self-evident that when he plays at 12 he is not expected to kick and can thus utilise his considerable skills with the ball. Although, I think he is probably best for the Waratahs at 15.

 

[It is what it is]

You're right about different circumstances in club & super rugby, it's about philosophy though.

I'm not sure how you got the idea that my comment on Barnes' kicking in any way inferred that he bore sole or even major responsibility for the Waratahs performances. I didn't say that and I don't think that. The whole team and the coaching staff bear collective responsibilityfor Waratahs 2011 & 2012.

I think and have always thought that Barnes is class. His kicking increased after he came to the Waratahs which leads me to believe that either he was told to kick as part of the Hickey 'win ugly' strategy or he was always receiving the ball under pressure and had less time and space out wide. It seems self-evident that when he plays at 12 he is not expected to kick and can thus utilise his considerable skills with the ball. Although, I think he is probably best for the Waratahs at 15.

I just don't see Barnes as a willing or natural runner of the ball.
If Foley can step up and play at 10 with composure and some structure it will be hard to see Barnes playing anywhere but full back.

 

[Rob42]

And yet, just when you think Barnes is a one-trick pony, he does show glimpses of speed into a gap and a great ability to pass flat with square shoulders, just enough to make you think that maybe there's more there. I'm still keen to see him at either 12 or 15 in a well-organised backline, something the Tahs didn't have last year.

 

[TOCC]

I remember this game for the Reds 2009 where Barnes was playing 5/8 and QC (Quade Cooper) was 12, Barnes displayed some great flat passing and running... Apologies i could find a better quality video though

 

[Dave Beat]

And yet, just when you think Barnes is a one-trick pony, he does show glimpses of speed into a gap and a great ability to pass flat with square shoulders, just enough to make you think that maybe there's more there. I'm still keen to see him at either 12 or 15 in a well-organised backline, something the Tahs didn't have last year.

I think Barnes has more tricks under that mullet, I question the game plan though.
His positional play, and vision is of high quality and thus I think a good fit in 15, hoping 11, 14, and 15 gel, and we dont kick as much.

 

[It is what it is]

Just checking in - anyone out there missing Coach Foley?

 

[Ruggo]

Barnes. He was just sensational when he filled in for Bernie at the 2007 RWC. He looked like something very special but hasn't quite met that promise in my view.

My theory is he is diverse in his ablities but also very loyal to playing his coaches instructions. Given the right message he is more than capable of lighting up the Tahs backline this year. I think he can serve an attacking game is that is what the Tahs intend to play.

 

[mark_s]

Just checking in - anyone out there missing Coach Foley?

Nope, and I am excited about the upcoming season for the first time since link was coach. There is just something refreshing about Cheika. I get the feeling we will go down fighting more this year, rather than grind out close loss after close loss.hopefully we get a better run of injuries, we are due.

Some good discussion recently here re back line options. I have no more to add other than I think Barnes and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) are the two certainties and I reckon Barnes' best position is 15 and I would play AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13. Also, I think the choice of a 12 will be partly dependent on Mitchell's fitness and form given he can offer so much more than a normal winger when on song.

 

[Quick Hands]

Barnes. He was just sensational when he filled in for Bernie at the 2007 RWC. He looked like something very special but hasn't quite met that promise in my view.

My theory is he is diverse in his ablities but also very loyal to playing his coaches instructions. Given the right message he is more than capable of lighting up the Tahs backline this year. I think he can serve an attacking game is that is what the Tahs intend to play.

When I think of our backs under Hickey/Foley/Deans, the words of Winston Churchill come to mind:
"Never on the field of rugby football have so many talented backs been made to look so ordinary by so few."

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It is what it is what do you mean by running?
We (Australia generally) need to get away from running 5/8's - what we need is blokes who can distribute the ball to people who are running.
As Mark Ella used to say if he touched it twice someone would score and if he touched it 3 times he would score: I know times have changed and maybe no one is quite Mark Ella but it bears thinking about.

 

[Woodenspoon]

hopefully we get a better run of injuries, we are due.

Yes, Waratahs definetly are.
Needless to say, last year's injuries kept a lot of key players out of the pitch for a long time and the general performance of the squad felt the effects. Hope this season will be different, even if some of the players seem to be prone to injury
Anyway, I'd like to take part in the 2013 Waratahs' Backline Lottery. This is my winning combination:

11 Folau
12 ...Hooper
13 Ashley-Cooper
14 Turner
15 Barnes

 

[fatprop]

I just don't see Barnes as a willing or natural runner of the ball.
If Foley can step up and play at 10 with composure and some structure it will be hard to see Barnes playing anywhere but full back.

Barnes is a facilitator, at his best he makes those around him better.

His play at 10 over the last couple of seasons has been too deep and his distribution too far away from the advantage line.

Foley on the other hand plays flatter and will attack the line, and has the ability to pop good passes in contact.

So to me, the optimal set up if Foley at 10, Carter at 12 & Barnes at 15

That way you can have Foley keeping the backrow & inside backs honest, while having Carter on close support line off his outside shoulder and Hooper on the inside. This would allow Barnes to step in to distribute wider and kick pass.

 

[Quick Hands]

Barnes is a facilitator, at his best he makes those around him better.

His play at 10 over the last couple of seasons has been too deep and his distribution too far away from the advantage line.

Foley on the other hand plays flatter and will attack the line, and has the ability to pop good passes in contact.

So to me, the optimal set up if Foley at 10, Carter at 12 & Barnes at 15

That way you can have Foley keeping the backrow & inside backs honest, while having Carter on close support line off his outside shoulder and Hooper on the inside. This would allow Barnes to step in to distribute wider and kick pass.

It'll be interesting to see how Carter adapts to the change in style (if one can call what has gone on in the past few years 'style'). With Carter at 12 and Barnes at 15 a penetrating and fast 13 is required.

 

[fatprop]

I think it would suit Carter

fast, unselfish, straight running 13 is required

fixed

 

[Scott Allen]

Have to agree with most people's thoughts on AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at #13 - should also be first choice in that role for the Wallabies - here's why http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/who-should-be-the-wallabies-number-13/

 

[Quick Hands]

They're all quality players, who plays where will be determined by trial form and the need for balance in the backline i.e. players who will complement each other.

We've pretty much covered the main contenders, anyone been to a training session to report how the new players or players who we haven't discussed been going?

 

[Braveheart81]

Have to agree with most people's thoughts on AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at #13 - should also be first choice in that role for the Wallabies - here's why http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/who-should-be-the-wallabies-number-13/

Seemless segue!