Waratahs 2013

[Quick Hands]

Just on the reshuffling in the backs, based on Cheika's time up here at Leinster, I would expect to see less reshuffling than we saw last year at the Tahs. Cheika seems to prefer to have a settled side with players in their preferred positions and in case of injuries 1 or 2 guys may move. Isa Nacewa was generally the guy to move covering fly half, full back and either wing, while the rest of the team remained in the normal position and the person coming into the team played in their familiar role. This approach will hopefully help the team learn the new systems easier and allow combinations to be more intuitive.

On the field it will probably be a different story though, especially as players become more used to the style of play, players will be expected to play the position they find themselves in. So wingers will be expected to be able to cover full back when the full back counters. A lot Leinster's attack was based on moving the ball quickly and accurately so often there wasn't time to realign. At the start there were instances where this might lead to a knock-on due to a forward being out wide in tight space etc. but once the handling skills improved that same forward was collecting the pass and giving a quick inside ball to put a back through a hole. It may not be pretty to start with but if it clicks it can be truly majestic.

Also I wouldn't expect there to be no kicking at all. At Leinster if the kick was the right option then it was taken. Contepomi and Necewa (plus Sexton later on) weren't afraid to exploit space behind the opposition defence with a well placed kick. The same was true for those playing full back and wing. The main difference was that the if the break was on or there was space to be exploited then that was the option taken the majority of the time, regardless of how far away from the try line they were.

To begin with Leinster were very inconsistent and shipped some heavy defeats and it will probably take time at the Tahs too. How much time depends on the players buy in to the philosophy. At Stade he never really got the players to opt-in and they were mediocre at best, hopefully the lessons learned there will help in terms of transforming the Tahs. I don't expect the Tahs to run out as world beaters at the start of the season, but I do expect there to be more ambition and rather than less kicking I would expect their to be less aimless kicking.

I certainly hope this is what pans out at the Waratahs.

 

[Rob42]

Just on the reshuffling in the backs, based on Cheika's time up here at Leinster, I would expect to see less reshuffling than we saw last year at the Tahs. . . . .

Bardon, great post again, excellent review. My impression of European rugby, though, was that rotation was an essential element of team management due to the workload of multiple competitions. Is such rotation thus primarily in the forwards, or did Cheika just do less of it? One of the big criticisms of M Foley was his lack of rotation potentially leading to more injuries.

 

[Bardon]

Bardon, great post again, excellent review. My impression of European rugby, though, was that rotation was an essential element of team management due to the workload of multiple competitions. Is such rotation thus primarily in the forwards, or did Cheika just do less of it? One of the big criticisms of M Foley was his lack of rotation potentially leading to more injuries.

Rotation up here is a must as there are so many more games. There was definitely rotation at Leinster under Cheika and it continues under Joe Schmidt but it was and is carefully managed. I think Leinster are in a better position than the Tahs in that they can rotate players in the RaboDirect league and it makes it easier to blood younger players both in the backs and the forwards. When rotation does happen it's generally the Irish stars who will be rested as per the agreement between the provinces and the IRFU. But those youngsters coming in will generally be played in their preferred positions and there will be the likes of Nacewa in the team to guide them through.

By the time those players are appearing in Heineken Cup match day squads they're already familiar with how they are expected to play and crucially they've taken to the field with some of the front line players around them. So a back would have played a number of games with the likes of BOD, D'Arcy, Sexton, Kearney etc. just not all on the pitch at the same time. But due to that time together they're more aware of the likely line a certain player will pick to run in support in a game situation.

Players like Fergus McFadden, Eoin O'Malley, Dave Kearney, Ian Maddigan and Fionn Carr in the backs along with the likes of Kevin McLaughlin, Dominic Ryan & Rhys Ruddock in the forwards are regularly rotated into the team and are trusted to be able to step up when required at HEC level. For example it would have been an easy call on Saturday to start with BOD who's just returning from injury when Leinster need a bonus point win against Scarlets but instead McFadden was trusted to perform and when Sean O'Brien had to pull out just before kick off, due to illness, Rhys Ruddock slotted in and had a fantastic game.

With the Tahs last year it seemed the players coming in to cover for injuries didn't have as much experience, not only at S15 level but with playing with the front line players. Rotation is beneficial in terms of managing player welfare but it's also important in terms of players gaining experience so they can slot into the team when injuries do occur.

Hopefully I've gotten the point across above, but I do tend to ramble, so just in case what I'm trying to say is that rotation is good but it doesn't necessarily mean there has to be a complete reshuffle in the backs every time 1 or 2 players are rotated into/out of the team.

 

[Lee Grant]

Does anyone know the Tahs training schedule, I live down the road from Moore park and wouldn't mind watching a training session?

The trouble is that they share the training ground at "The Loop", opposite the Drivers Avenue members entrance of the SCG; so they often use the Victoria Barracks, which the general public can't access.

The Tahs didn't advise that there were any training sessions at "The Loop", which the general public can attend, for the remainder of the week, but that doesn't mean that they won't be there.

Call the Tahs and ask them when they will be training at "The Loop" for the rest of the week - then do this every Monday morning.

If you want to see the Wallabies - they weren't at Tahs training yesterday at the Barracks as they were in Wallabies camp; so maybe they won't be there for the rest of the week either.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

It is kind of bizarre that the official name of that ground is Bus Loop Oval.

They should put a cricket pitch in the middle of it and call it SCG No. 2 seeing as the former SCG No. 2 no longer exists.

 

[Quick Hands]

Rotation up here is a must as there are so many more games. But those youngsters coming in will generally be played in their preferred positions and there will be the likes of Nacewa in the team to guide them through.

By the time those players are appearing in Heineken Cup match day squads they're already familiar with how they are expected to play and crucially they've taken to the field with some of the front line players around them.


Hopefully I've gotten the point across above, but I do tend to ramble, so just in case what I'm trying to say is that rotation is good but it doesn't necessarily mean there has to be a complete reshuffle in the backs every time 1 or 2 players are rotated into/out of the team.

I've edited your post to save space only. Bringing players into specific positions, surrounded by experienced players in their regular positions is the way to do it.

 

[fatprop]

My concern with the Tahs back unit is whether they can play with any fluency.

The only real "threat" they have is Mitchell, he has that "x" factor, and maybe Folau (but I want to see him play rugby before printing t-shirts for the fan club).

So they will have to work together to create opportunities as a unit, that means ball skills and effort to keep in play and work to get space.

With that in mind, just who do you pick?

 

[TOCC]

The trouble is that they share the training ground at "The Loop", opposite the Drivers Avenue members entrance of the SCG; so they often use the Victoria Barracks, which the general public can't access.

The Tahs didn't advise that there were any training sessions at "The Loop", which the general public can attend, for the remainder of the week, but that doesn't mean that they won't be there.

Call the Tahs and ask them when they will be training at "The Loop" for the rest of the week - then do this every Monday morning.

If you want to see the Wallabies - they weren't at Tahs training yesterday at the Barracks as they were in Wallabies camp; so maybe they won't be there for the rest of the week either.
.

Ah ok thanks, i may have access to Victoria Barracks as well though
I've driven past a few times and seen them training across from the SCG, but haven't had the opportunity to stop and watch.

 

[Braveheart81]

Not talking about blindly picking the next best, but the dynamic situations that occur in a game are often best handled by players who are experts in that position and have faith in those around them. Ever noticed how some class fullbacks always seem to know where the ball is going to be kicked to, some centre combinations always seem to know what the other guy is doing?

Something is never right or wrong 100% of the time, there will always be the occasion where picking a guy out of position is the right thing for the team, but if it's the first option as has been the Waratahs and Wallabies of late, then it leads to confusion and chaos.

As I've said, multi-skilling is important in the development/academy phase to prepare players to fill in off the bench and play out of position in times of necessity. When we talk of a backline looking "slick", it's usually one in which the players almost instinctively know what each other is doing and can turn nothing into half breaks and half breaks into tries.

It is such a tough choice to manage though, especially where there isn't the ideal depth of players like there is in New Zealand for example.

The best Wallabies or Waratahs team on paper potentially has people playing out of their number one position already. I guess you are making a choice that the Waratahs or Wallabies are a better team by including more of your top stars rather than rigidly selecting by position and leaving out some of your better players because you've decided they're not the best player in their preferred position.

You could make an argument that the important thing is building up experience amongst the same group of players, moreso than the playing group you have building experience by all playing in the same position.

 

[Quick Hands]

My concern with the Tahs back unit is whether they can play with any fluency.

The only real "threat" they have is Mitchell, he has that "x" factor, and maybe Folau (but I want to see him play rugby before printing t-shirts for the fan club).

So they will have to work together to create opportunities as a unit, that means ball skills and effort to keep in play and work to get space.

With that in mind, just who do you pick?

Fluency is definitely the key and the 2 posts from Bardon tend to confirm my thoughts that the side under Cheika will be better than what we've seen in the Hickey/Foley era.

Normally I'd love to share my thoughts with confidence on who to pick, but there's so many guys who I can't place into a specific position because they've wandered around the backline in so many different spots over the past few years.

As a discussion point and without great conviction here it goes:

9. Mckibbon didn't really make it his own last year and I'd like to see how Lucas goes in trials

10. Foley as he has an attacking game - Lane needs game time at this level, will watch with interest

11/14. Turner, Folau & Mitchell depending on trial form

12. Horne or Carter - I'd like to see how he goes in an expansive backline after playing at Uni and in recent Waratah matches where he's fulfilled the crash ball role

13. Kingston - he played all his rugby here until called into Waratahs when they ran out of wingers. I'd like to see how he goes there.

15. Barnes - safe and has a good kick, but needs to explore the counter-attack option before banging it into touch

Bench AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper),

I would qualify this by saying if I was Cheika, I'd have asked all these guys where they see themselves playing and I'd be running backlines at training to see how players went with each other. I reckon Cheika would be doing so. I also suspect that the backline in the 1st super match will contain one surprise. Whoever starts that 1st match needs to be kept in the team and in the same position for at least 3 matches unless injury occurs.

Tough choices ahead and there will be at least a couple of disappointed big names either on the bench or out of the 23 in game 1 of super season.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't see how AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is going to end up on the bench in a full strength Waratahs side. I am sure he will be slotted in somewhere.

I would say Barnes and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) are the two walk up starters in the Tahs backline. If fit, they will both be there somewhere. If Mitchell is fit, he's probably the third walk up starter although there will be significantly more pressure on him to keep that status given he can only play wing and possibly fullback and there is huge competition for the wing spots.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't see how AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is going to end up on the bench in a full strength Waratahs side. I am sure he will be slotted in somewhere.

I would say Barnes and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) are the two walk up starters in the Tahs backline. If fit, they will both be there somewhere. If Mitchell is fit, he's probably the third walk up starter although there will be significantly more pressure on him to keep that status given he can only play wing and possibly fullback and there is huge competition for the wing spots.

Maybe you're right, although I can't see Carter, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and BB in the one backline if you're going to play an expansive game.

As I said, I have no strong conviction about the names I put up. There will, however, be disappointment on the way for at least 1 high profile player and possibly more. It will depend on trial form and what Cheika has been observing at training.

I just hope that the final backline picked is picked on trial & preseason form and not on reputation. The fact that many of the Wallabies returned to training early leads me to believe that they think that their reputations might not count for much anymore.

I don't believe that Cheika sees any of them as a walk up start though.

 

[TOCC]

I would be happy If the Tahs played AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on the bench in their first match

 

[Quick Hands]

We know that Cheika has asked BB where he wants to trial, so I assume that he's had a similar conversation with the others. Safe to assume that BB said 10, 12 or 15, so whichever he chose will dictate who slots in elsewhere at least for the 1st trial.

As long as the form players are picked for the 1st super match I'll be satisfied, I have no axe to grind for or against any of them.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Maybe you're right, although I can't see Carter, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and BB in the one backline if you're going to play an expansive game.

Apart from Carter I would reserve judgment on the capacity of these guys to play expansively at s 15 level: I think both have been playing without confidence and the new regime may have changed this position.
This is no criticism of Carter as I think whatever Cheika's ultimate ambitions for the team's style of play he should be a starter for Round 1 - accepting that this means nothing will go wide on 1st phase other than on a cut out!!

 

[Braveheart81]

Cheika may ask everyone where they want to play (or trial) but I'm guessing that won't be the end of it.

There's no way he's going to leave key players out of his side because they all nominated the same position as where they most wanted to play.

He will also have his own ideas about where he thinks players should play in his ideal team. There is a very good chance that Foley and Barnes will be the top two options at 10 and will both be in the starting XV.

 

[Pete King]

Id be very suprised under a Cheika / Gafney coached side if Carter is picked at 12.

 

[Braveheart81]

Id be very suprised under a Cheika / Gafney coached side if Carter is picked at 12.

Why?

Cheika has made several comments in interviews regarding his desire for players to be aggressive and abrasive. Tom Carter fits that description perfectly.

Most of Cheika's general comments seem to indicate that Carter has a better chance to be in the starting XV this year than he did last year.

 

[Quick Hands]

Cheika may ask everyone where they want to play (or trial) but I'm guessing that won't be the end of it.

There's no way he's going to leave key players out of his side because they all nominated the same position as where they most wanted to play.

He will also have his own ideas about where he thinks players should play in his ideal team. There is a very good chance that Foley and Barnes will be the top two options at 10 and will both be in the starting XV.

I think you're right, he'll decide who'll play where based on his evaluations of players. At least after them being mucked around by Hickey/Foley/Deans, he's giving them the chance to say where they feel they want to play. It's the coach giving players input, responsibility and respect.

On the Foley/Barnes thing, they may well both be in the starting XV (probably will be), not sure if they'll be swapped around though. The Randwick way was always to keep players in position and bring the next best up, they knew the calls and what was expected in that position. We'll know more after trials - I can't wait.

 

[Quick Hands]

Why?

Cheika has made several comments in interviews regarding his desire for players to be aggressive and abrasive. Tom Carter fits that description perfectly.

Most of Cheika's general comments seem to indicate that Carter has a better chance to be in the starting XV this year than he did last year.

I suspect where BB plays will have an impact on Carter. It might end up Foley at 10, BB at 12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 15. That might stop BB kicking the ball.