Waratahs 2012

[Gnostic]

Commemts from Nick Phipps supporting my earlier statements regarding Halfback core skills.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d-for-test-debut/story-e6frg7o6-1226083761172

 

[rugbysmartarse]

Have a look at the Tahs players and ask yourself which players in the squad have improved on their core skills and play under this coaching regime?

that's a bit harsh there, Gnostic.

Dennis, Mowen, Horne, Timani, Douglas, Kepu, Carter, and arguably TPN and Beale all improved since 2008. Mumm, robinson, cross, Palu (when fit) and Waugh all stayed about the same. The only one who's gone backwards is Turner.

 

[Gnostic]

that's a bit harsh there, Gnostic.

Dennis, Mowen, Horne, Timani, Douglas, Kepu, Carter, and arguably TPN and Beale all improved since 2008. Mumm, robinson, cross, Palu (when fit) and Waugh all stayed about the same. The only one who's gone backwards is Turner.

Denis improved after being picked from club footy for the EOYT. Mowen is doing what he alwaqys has and fit what the team wanted. Horne is/was/remains injured/ Carter I'll grant along with Timani. Keou hasn't improved he has just got a regular start and remained uninjured, many of us have been trumpeting how good he is for a few years now. TPN has improved his throwing but the rest was always there and as for Beale I don't think his game has improved at all at Super Level. Burgess, has at best remained static.

All the others aside show me where new talent has been developed by the coaching regime and where the succession plan is for senior players nearing the end of their career or obviously going to move on? Players like Waugh, has successors in McCutcheon who I thought was very ordinary and Alcock who I thought was OK but as FP likes to point out misses lots of tackles. What about Fitzpatrick as the only credible backup to TPN, even if he hadn't got injured he has been poor to average in all the games of recent note he has got to play for the Tahs.

The coaching staff have also not paid enough attention on recruiting and so many squad places have been given to players that never or rarely played for the Tahs. Just look at the 2nd row for example, Roodt, Jowit and O'Connor.

Do not get me wrong whilst I believe the players have to take some responsibility for this a larger part resisdes with the coaching regime for not paying enough attention to the second stringers in both their training and recruiting.

 

[waratahjesus]

Wow, that was harsh even by your standards gnostic.

I agree that the tahs have room for improvement, but you seem to be overly negative.

Be it that Beale apparently hasn't improved dispute developing into a leader and becoming reliable and consistent.

Kepu has improved greatly but it doesn't count cos you already thought he could play like this?

Dennis is only playing the way he is cos he went on an end of season tour, he went on tour signed to a contract by the tahs but there recruitment isn't there?

I'm nit saying not to be negative or to ask for more from the tahs, just credit where it's due.

 

[Gnostic]

Wow, that was harsh even by your standards gnostic.

I agree that the tahs have room for improvement, but you seem to be overly negative.

Be it that Beale apparently hasn't improved dispute developing into a leader and becoming reliable and consistent.

Kepu has improved greatly but it doesn't count cos you already thought he could play like this?

Dennis is only playing the way he is cos he went on an end of season tour, he went on tour signed to a contract by the tahs but there recruitment isn't there?

I'm nit saying not to be negative or to ask for more from the tahs, just credit where it's due.

That isn't what I said at all, your spin on my comments is totally wrong. Go back and read again. What I have pointed out is contrast player development at the Tahs with the other provinces.

 

[waratahjesus]

Sorry gnostic, that's what I got from it,
For me there is no contrast, just perception in the tahs being any worse at recruiting than any other franchise.

 

[TOCC]

On the contrary, i think the Tahs are fortunate to capture the best up and coming talent in the country...

 

[Hawko]

All the others aside show me where new talent has been developed by the coaching regime and where the succession plan is for senior players nearing the end of their career or obviously going to move on? Players like Waugh, has successors in McCutcheon who I thought was very ordinary and Alcock who I thought was OK but as FP likes to point out misses lots of tackles. What about Fitzpatrick as the only credible backup to TPN, even if he hadn't got injured he has been poor to average in all the games of recent note he has got to play for the Tahs.

The coaching staff have also not paid enough attention on recruiting and so many squad places have been given to players that never or rarely played for the Tahs. Just look at the 2nd row for example, Roodt, Jowit and O'Connor.

Do not get me wrong whilst I believe the players have to take some responsibility for this a larger part resisdes with the coaching regime for not paying enough attention to the second stringers in both their training and recruiting.

I don't think that its just recruiting, and all the second stringers have been trained to death. It is the policy that Waratahs selectors have put in place that says the best player MUST always play and that a back-up player must never get more than 10 minutes unless there is an injury. Players need to play real games to develop, you don't develop properly by hitting tackling bags. This year TPN has been injured most games. So how can you explain that Fitzpatrick's whole season amounted to 226 minutes, less than three games in total? I am aware that he was injured around week 9 or 10, but his first major outing was against the Crusader front row and he had a poor game. He went in cold and under-prepared in terms of match fitness and ran into the best front row in the comp. The obvious happened. There was no Shute to play in at that stage and he had had 5 or 10 minute outings previously. By contrast the Crusaders had a complete prop rotation system going all year. If you counted it up I reckon Ben and Owen Franks and Crockett would have played nearly equal time throughout the year. They took turns in being the 80 minute, 60 minute and bench player and it worked a treat. Surprise, surprise, none of them spent much time on the injury list because they were less subject to fatigue which is a major cause of injury.

Roodt was a dud, every province makes that sort of mistake now and again and they drift off into the sunset. Jowitt, we'll never know. He's been so injured he's never had a chance. O'Connor looked alright as a super squad member when he finally got a go, no superstar but a reasonable tradesman. But all the other locks had to be broken or suspended before he was given a chance.

Which leads me on to the other effect that the dopey "play the best 15" policy has on the overall squad. Virtually immediately the squad is separated into the players and the also-rans. Also-rans only play if players get injured. Also-rans are not really part of the squad, they are just reserves. They know they are just reserves. And, because they are human beings not robots, the disappointment affects their morale and they get down about themselves. It disappoints me to say it but I reckon the Reds back-up players played better than the Tahs back-ups because they felt more a part of the squad and not just second-raters.

I reckon McCutcheon and Alcock suffered, Fitzpatrick suffered, McKibben must have been inwardly distressed at his treatment, Hangers took several games to get his confidence back after Barnes was injured, Kingston suffered too. These players needed the confidence that they could step up, but the selection policy said they would only be good enough if someone got injured.

Its not a team of 15, its a squad. And the sooner we get a coach who understands the psychology of that the better. Its not like club, where you drop back to 2nds if someone is better, you just don't play for weeks and weeks. If they do send you back to Shute for some game time later in the season, they'll demand you only play 40 minutes!

PS. I think you may have defamed Fatprop, I'm pretty sure its me that's been complaining about Alcock's tackling stats.

 

[Gnostic]

You understand my meaning obviously Hawko. I totally agree regarding the first XV mentality and that is indeed part of my assertions about the total lack of player development at the Tahs. There were able back-up that required adequate game time to ensure their fitness to perform if/when there was an injury requirement for them to become first XV.

This point is best illustrated by McKibben, he sat on the bench all year and when Burgess was injured Hickey decided that he wasn't up to the start and picked Holmes who hadn't made the bench the all year.

 

[waratahjesus]

Did the coaching staff actually give a reason at all why holes started?

I remember when john started at hooker and fitz stayed on the bench how up in arms everyone was until hickey said ut was part of the plan for John to take the physicality at the start of the match and fitz to come on after 30 with his running game.

There may well be a actual researched, training responsive reason behind selection.

How many games did the tags actual have there first 15 on the paddock this year?

 

[jay-c]

Hawko

i think the point needs to be raised that the only way hickey could confirm is job reappointment is if he won the title>
put yourself in his shoes> he like anyone would worry about next season if he knew he was going to be there> in his situation you put the best players on the park> fuck development.
i dont like it> but his reasoning was forced upon him>

 

[fatprop]

You understand my meaning obviously Hawko. I totally agree regarding the first XV mentality and that is indeed part of my assertions about the total lack of player development at the Tahs. There were able back-up that required adequate game time to ensure their fitness to perform if/when there was an injury requirement for them to become first XV.

This point is best illustrated by McKibben, he sat on the bench all year and when Burgess was injured Hickey decided that he wasn't up to the start and picked Holmes who hadn't made the bench the all year.

The Tahs had Burgess running the forward runners from static ball all season, I think they believed with disjointed backs and a want to play a tight structured game that Holmes was going to be more effective, Hickey stated that they didn't want to chuck it wide as they believed the less structure game would suit the Blues. They wanted to keep it tight, limit turnovers and play set piece to set piece.

Watching McKibben in that game and other matches), I think they believe he needs to work on his short distribution game.

He has a great accurate pass to his ten, but looks all over the shop directing forwards with short passes, his timing is often off.

 

[DPK]

And they did keep it tight to some success against the Blues. For at least the first half of the first half, the Tahs defense and tight game plan was really good, then the game slipped away.

 

[RedsHappy]

i think the point needs to be raised that the only way hickey could confirm is job reappointment is if he won the title>
put yourself in his shoes> he like anyone would worry about next season if he knew he was going to be there> in his situation you put the best players on the park> fuck development. i dont like it> but his reasoning was forced upon him>

Reading the very good analytical (and admirably objective) posts from passionate Tahs' supporters here, I deduce a number of themes that appear to be fundamental 'buried truths' that help partly explain what Gnostic (as a 30 yr Tahs' fan) months ago coined as 'the tragedy of the Waratahs' by which he meant (I think) precisely the same thing that Scarfman in his recent posts has been driving at, namely: the Tahs, despite their huge potential and the general affluence of their home city and sponsorship base, have continuously made themselves unable to acquire championship status, there is always, every year to a fault, a reason for never having arrived. They have never discovered or developed a 'total formula for ultimate success', but come near that place over and over again, only to 'fail' again. And this has happened now for what, 15 or so years, it cannot be just runs of endless bad luck, or statistical coincidence or the long food and drink lines at the SFS.

The themes I see, (from these posters' analyses) are:

1. The Tahs (business and playing) culture is manifestly like that type of quite successful (but not No 1 in its field) company that is continuously obsessed with near-term quarterly P&L results, the next immediate positive result that can sustain some kind of support, at the expense of building a hoiistically excellent enterprise, with investment in long-term people and product development, great R&D etc, that thus builds a business that ultimately breaks out to become a leader in its chosen market for many years based upon these wise longer-term and deeper investments (that would never pay off in the very short term and indeed may cause short term losses specifically aimed at long-term gains).

2. Linked directly to 1 above, a tendency to emphasise 'key player capability on the park for immediate gains', and neglect investment and the humility necessary to build deeper skills excellence in all facets of play....the types of deeper skills excellence that permits complete game plans to be executed with very low error rates and constant coherence between forwards and backs play, etc. (a la Cru, for example).

3. Given 1 and 2, deeper extended squad development is sacrificed as, to use my business analogy, 'we simply have to make next month's profit numbers and we'll only ever do that with our best players always on the park'. Note the resulting vicious circle this mindset inevitably creates.

4. A management system that is, effectively, satisfied with 'we always come close and that's much better than any other Australian team'. Satisfaction in relative, not absolute, results. The relative positive results - consistent 'we are up there, better than those Reds and Brumbies' - engender a lack of willingness to confront underlying cultural and 'poor investments or no investments' problems that thus in turn perpetrates the constant repetition of strategies that preserve a relative, not absolute, adequacy of performance as the norm, year in, year out.

Can I just note that my sole motivation in composing these thoughts is that if 'the tragedy of the Waratahs' keeps repeating itself and the Tahs' crowds never come back (and stay at say a 14,000 average), there will never be a fix, the window of opportunity will soon close foreever, and Australian rugby will be the loser, big time. Australian rugby needs a highly successful Tahs with average S15 crowds of at least 25,000 and the massive positive reinforcement for fans and the business that comes from a, or many, Finals win(s). There is no question that NSW rugby (and its local economy) has the talent to do it, the issue is can the Tahs management (Board, executives and coaches) make the major changes essential to do it. And do they comprehend what is now required.

 

[Hawko]

Just sticking an "agree" on this does not do justice to my feelings. This, from an outsider, is the best analysis of what's fundamentally wrong with the Tahs that I've read anywhere. Makes Spiro read like a dribbling 3 year old.

The Waratahs are a business, just like any other with a particular product for sale. And the key, only determinant on whether they can make the step up to number one is the quality of the CEO. If he accepts second best, things will go on as usual. If he makes the key changes happen for long term improvement then the whole business will step up and success will come.

 

[Lee Grant]

that's a bit harsh there, Gnostic.

Dennis, Mowen, Horne, Timani, Douglas, Kepu, Carter, and arguably TPN and Beale all improved since 2008. Mumm, robinson, cross, Palu (when fit) and Waugh all stayed about the same. The only one who's gone backwards is Turner.

Timani's improvement this year has been amazing. Who else nearly despaired of this athlete not fulfilling his potential at the Brumbies and Force, and who else thought he was a dud Tahs acquisition unless, as looked unlikely, he improved, and especially in his handling? Guilty on both counts Your Honour.


But Gnostic is right in deploring some of the lack of skill shown this year and especially in the backs. Bob Dwyer wrote a piece earlier in the season and it resonated with me, especially watching them at the ground. He said that it looked like they didn't practise passing and that it should be practised at every session without exception.

It need not be fancy - just passing the ball in front of the player in pods, taking into account the speed of the receiving player, and the receivers running on to where the ball should be in space. Passing the ball from a square on position with the ball in both hands is another simple exercise as is the standard swing pass and the dummy swing.

A few run around pod exercises are good too, yet we saw few attempts on the park as though they had never practised it.

What I saw too much of were the bunny hops that the backs had to do as passes were too high or too far behind the right point in space. There were also passes too far in front of forwards, but that was a lesser evil.

If these passing skills were honed for even just 10 minutes a session you would see the difference on the park.

There were other things that had more to do with diligence: not chasing kicks, and not getting back to get into attacking formation on turnovers - instead waiting for the play to go by them first.

Then there were the aimless kicks, literally, as they didn't seem to have a target - and the decisions to kick in the first place. but others have covered that.

 

[Hawko]

The Tahs had Burgess running the forward runners from static ball all season, I think they believed with disjointed backs and a want to play a tight structured game that Holmes was going to be more effective, Hickey stated that they didn't want to chuck it wide as they believed the less structure game would suit the Blues. They wanted to keep it tight, limit turnovers and play set piece to set piece.

And yet, from the 10 minute mark we dominated the game and scored the first try with ball in hand. The Blues were back on their heels. It came on the back of two things. One was great, in your face, dominant offence. The other was attacking back running through the 10/12/13 channels, where the Blues tacklers are almost Rebelesque. So can someone please explain to me why something that worked really well for twenty minutes needed to be abandoned for aimless chip kicks and then the dross that was the second half?

Incidentally, Link won't have missed that even if Hickey did. I think Cooper, Fainga'a and Ioane off the inside ball will have a field day on Saturday night.

 

[Henry]

http://www.sarugby.net/article.aspx?category=sarugby/springboks&id=422494

"Ricky Januarie has withdrawn from the Springboks’ preliminary Rugby World Cup squad after announcing his retirement from international rugby on Friday."

Sarel Pretorius was originally not included in South Africas squad. Now Januarie is gone surely they would select Pretorius. Will this have any effect on him signing/not signing for the Tahs? At the least he would perhaps be ineligible for the rising marquee spot. Would he even want to come and play for the Tahs if he does indeed get game time during the RWC...

 

[waratahjesus]

http://www.sarugby.net/article.aspx?category=sarugby/springboks&id=422494

"Ricky Januarie has withdrawn from the Springboks’ preliminary Rugby World Cup squad after announcing his retirement from international rugby on Friday."

Sarel Pretorius was originally not included in South Africas squad. Now Januarie is gone surely they would select Pretorius. Will this have
any effect on him signing/not signing for the Tahs? At the least he would perhaps be ineligible for the rising marquee spot. Would he
even want to come and play for the Tahs if he does indeed get game time during the RWC...

As far as what has been said, the tahs were interested in him fo the marquee spot and he would still be eligible for the boks even if he plays in Sydney as south Africa don't restrict there selection like australia

 

[Gnostic]

And yet, from the 10 minute mark we dominated the game and scored the first try with ball in hand. The Blues were back on their heels. It came on the back of two things. One was great, in your face, dominant offence. The other was attacking back running through the 10/12/13 channels, where the Blues tacklers are almost Rebelesque. So can someone please explain to me why something that worked really well for twenty minutes needed to be abandoned for aimless chip kicks and then the dross that was the second half?

Incidentally, Link won't have missed that even if Hickey did. I think Cooper, Fainga'a and Ioane off the inside ball will have a field day on Saturday night.

It should be noted that Hickey is reported to have instructed the Tahs at 1/2 time to play a territory based game. The Tahs dutifully did so, with very very poor execution. After 10 minutes the issue was the shakey set peice really started to tell and the execution of basic skills and decision making fell away. AFter 15 minutes I actually SMSed a mate and said if they can keep up this intensity and accuracy that can do it. At half time I knew the game was over.