Waratahs 2012

[high tower]

Lee
your match reports and knowledge of schools rugby are something to be hold.

BUT
what were you thinking with that last post,
Pretorious
suggesting a half back could defend @ fullback except during scrums, what about lineouts, rucknmauls!

Stirzacker played approx 4-5 games of note in 09 schools trials and national schools then got injured game 1 of UK schools tour.
2011 played a first grade game for Uni, some 1st colts and injured again, have the tahs got some cotton wool to wrap him in till 2013.

not your best work IMHO.

 

[Lee Grant]

Fair enough; it would be unusual but I've seen it before. One of the French clubs used to do it the season before last but I have forgotten which, though come to think of it the scrummie who did defend there was a 9/10 hybrid, and the fullback defended at 10. I didn't notice it myself but the commentator, Robbie Nock, mentioned it.

The point was that the scrummie defending at fullback was a young, light player and not a regular.

If Pretorius' defence becomes a problem I would do it with Halangahu defending at 9 and the fullback at 10; or at least give it a go. A few years back Hangers played a few games in trials playing scrummie and wasn't the worst.

Defending at the scrums though is a more technical task.


Edit
I'm pretty sure now that the French team was Biarritz. Traille would come into flyhalf and he played there a lot that year anyway, and not very well. The inexperienced scrummie, subbing for Yachvilli, dropped back to fullback and either Peyrelongue or Courrent went to 9.

 

[Gnostic]

Given the comments of Hickey reported in the SMH and other journals regarding the Fan Forum and his continued "belief in our systems" if Hickey gets re-instated next year expect a steady decline in both the results and the number of people going to games. Expect no change in the way they play or the level skills execution.

I refuse to buy into the "wrong Tactics" argument, the Tahs have had the right tactics for the last three years with the forward pack they have had, what they haven't had is any decent level of skills execution.

 

[Lee Grant]

It's more than just tactics and it's more than just skills.

The Tahs problems included clocking off in the forwards. Against the Reds in Sydney I thought there was a bright new day as the forwards put in until the game was clearly won and the subs came on, but the qualifier last week was more typical: 15-20 minutes of attacking defence around the rucks then morphing into reaction rugby as their opponents bossed them in and around the rucks.

In the 1st match against the Blues it was the other way around: they clocked off from the opening whistle but put in the work after oranges. Sure the backs were at fault in both games but the forwards have a lot to answer for too.

Another problem was the lack of penetration of the backs when the forwards were playing well. Poor execution, especially piss poor passing was part of that but there was also a lack of ideas on the run. Beale took many wrong choices during the season but the Tahs are going to be a pedestrian and predictable outfit without him. He had a go when nothing was on and more often than not it was worthwhile.

The backs remaining at the Tahs, and any new ones, will not have his skills but they must attempt more things - and get the execution right, of course.

 

[Gnostic]

Agreed, and as I said a few pages back as well, a big issue for the Tahs is that no side has won the comp without a World Class 10 (and that includes Steyn) and the Tahs don't have one and have no history in developing one either. I am unsure on the future of Barnes but even if fit he has been just as prone to the poor execution of basic skills, even when behind a dominant pack.

 

[qwerty51]

Not just a world-class 10 but we desperately need a decent goal kicker. We left way too many points on the park this year.

 

[ChargerWA]

Didn't Beale have the best kick percentage of any Australian kicker this year?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The lack of a class 10 is a pretty good argument for why the Tahs have never quite made the leap to championship material. I agree with that. It's really been a good long while since they had a good one. Dare I say it, all the way back to Scott Bowen?

 

[Lee Grant]

Beale was about 72%, which is reasonable. The Kiwis were bad this year by comparison.

Another negative was the Tahs inability to win outside the country: 0-5.

 

[Woopsie]

IMO- I see the writing on the wall for Chris Hickey. I don't see the business of the Tahs accepting anything but some radical changes. From a rugby perspective, you would give the Tahs a tick for a good season, as they made the finals, albeit inside the "weakest" conference. However, for a team to have isolated themselves so far away from what their fans want and expect; being dominant running, exciting rugby; nothing short of some radical changes will see differing results in 2012.
We all know in principle the following;
Winning teams enjoy growing crowds
Fans embrace winning teams by buying merchandise
Sponsors embrace winning teams being embraced by fans for commercial reasons
Cash flow is king in any business, and certainly helps attract, retain and grow talent at all levels, thus future proofing the business.
What I am saying is that the 'business' side of the Tahs needs more than a winning side, they need to be winning "pretty to watch"

So with that in mind; I see a change in coaching, a change in style, and some changes in recruitment strategy fir the next 2 seasons.
The Tahs needs players who will get turnstiles spinning; Nonu would, surely! (question- how do we as a franchise get all those kiwis at Bondi coming to our games?) Nonu is the man!! Pretorius is a good option as he will spark something at the scrum base. What we desperately need though is a 10?!?!? - what is Jonny W doing next year? now we need an icon as well!; I know!! Let's enquire as to what Sebastien Chabal is doing?, that enigmatic Frenchman would surely help. Seriously, it could work! The recruitment strategy is shirt term, but something needs to be done to change the direction of people's feet when it comes to supporting the Tahs. Yes, okay so we have potentially gone over our quota of internationals, minor detail, the point is still valid.

 

[waratahjesus]

so the key for the tahs to play attacking rugby would be johnny wilkinson?

 

[DPK]

More like Dan Carter, WJ. And I don't mean the real Dan Carter, I mean a flyhalf that is a jack of all trades. We need someone who can kick goals and field position well, can run an attack and can defend.

If we can get someone who can do most of these things but needs development, why the fuck not?

 

[fatprop]

We aren't going to pull a "Dan Carter" out of our arse, we will have to survive with what we can find

 

[RedsHappy]

The lack of a class 10 is a pretty good argument for why the Tahs have never quite made the leap to championship material. I agree with that. It's really been a good long while since they had a good one. Dare I say it, all the way back to Scott Bowen?

One assumes the Tahs were hoping to address this with BB from early 2010. Then disappointment struck, BB's form in 2010 was inconsistent at best, he never seemed to settle that year, then we all know what has transpired for BB in 2011, and we may never see him on the grass again. (I'm incredulous that some posters keep confidently placing him in the RWC squad.)

And whatever Burgess' many strengths, his chronically erratic passing and poor pressure kicking is never going to set up even the best 10 in an optimal manner. So, IMO, it's about the Tahs finding (or rapidly developing) both a terrific new 9 and 10. That pairing is everything.

 

[Gnostic]

As RH says the 9-10 nexus is critical and as good as Burges is at running from the base of the ruck and scrum (at times) and his defence at 9 is arguably the best in the country and possibly the world, his core duty is to clear the ball from the breakdown and set piece. At this point his execution was slow on average and glacial at worst and the accuracy of his passing can be best and perhaps generously described as erratic.

A new 9 with this core skill is essential, if his defence isn't as good (and I doubt anybody will have the defensive skill of Burgess at 9) a supportive backrower like a Saffy will compensate. The benefits of having a 9 that can actually pass out of both hands and clear the ball with speed will far outweigh the negatives.

The Tahs also have to stop looking for the next Larkham-Ella-Cooper- Carter at 10. They need to select a good 10 (or player in other position with the requisite skills as Larkham had) and develop him. There have been some very good 10s in NSW that haven't got anywhere near a Tahs jersey who should have been looked at. They left Oz and stepped up and played very well overseas. The list is quiet long and you wonder what could have been if the systems had been in place to support and develop them, players like Dan Parks and Chris Malone spring to mind. With those two named, given the kicking game (field position - in Hickeys own words) the Tahs have attempted to play for the last three years would they have not been far better served with a very skillful kicking 10 like Parks or Malone? Instead they have contracted a tradesman like Hangers who has struggled.

 

[Aussie D]

An attitude change is what is most needed. The 'tahs coaches need to open their eyes to the talent available in the Shute Shield before importing from overseas. The marquees should be saved for positions of weakness. As an example McKibben, Roos and Sua are all good enough for Super Rugby at 9 so why get Pretorius? Experience? And if he gets injured early in the season (as many of the Force' imports have done)? Where to then? Pick the good young players in the Shute Shield that have spent itme in the academy (even if not currently) and back them. It is what Link has done with Queensland.

I think the whole concept of winning attracting crowds or running rugby attracting crowds are slightly off point. IMHO most fans want to see teams 'having a go', displaying enjoyment and passion in what they are doing. It is asking a bit much for fans to be passionate if the players aren't showing it.

 

[Gnostic]

Agreed Aussie but you missed one salient point that people want to see - quality. I love Rugby and enjoyed watching the dominance of the English pack (when they weren't playin the Walls) of the early 2000's because it was brilliant Rugby and so well executed.

How many times this year when the Tahs kicked or passed poorly did we say WTF was that? Just like Kurtley Beale said to Hangers two weeks ago when he put through that nothing kick.

 

[Aussie D]

I think quality is a by-product of passion. If you are passionate about something then you will put in a lot more effort in perfecting the thing you are interested in. South African and New Zealand players seem to have it in spades whereas it is not as evident in Oz players. George Gregan famously said in the lead-up to a humiliating defeat in 2003 (NZ 52 - Oz very little) 'passion is overrated', this coming in the era of paint-by-numbers rugby stuck in the minds of many rugby supporters.

 

[RedsHappy]

Beale was about 72%, which is reasonable. The Kiwis were bad this year by comparison.

Apologies in advance, this is a tad off topic, but not totally (as kicking excellence will matter much for the Tahs in 2012, and their prime 2011 kicker has now departed). Seeing LG's latest account of Beale's 2011 place kick % success ratio, I am wondering: has any Aus S15 kicker produced an S15 kick success ratio that is 'good enough' for RWC requirements? And how does same compare with the kicking talent/2011 success ratios in top teams we're likely to face, say Steyn and Carter, etc.

I just to this day remember so well: if Flatley hadn't kicked (IIRC) 100% in RWC 2003, there'd have been no extra time, we would have lost in 80 mins most likely. Kicking well (and from hand too, btw) under high pressure in these knock-out contests is just so critical, and certainly the Wallabies' kicking results achieved in the last few years have not been stellar, to say the least.

 

[Gnostic]

I think quality is a by-product of passion. If you are passionate about something then you will put in a lot more effort in perfecting the thing you are interested in. South African and New Zealand players seem to have it in spades whereas it is not as evident in Oz players. George Gregan famously said in the lead-up to a humiliating defeat in 2003 (NZ 52 - Oz very little) 'passion is overrated', this coming in the era of paint-by-numbers rugby stuck in the minds of many rugby supporters.

Not necessarily. No body can doubt the Tahs are passionate IMO. The problem is one of motivating people and leadership. This is where again I feel the coaching staff have failed to provide rigorous review and critique of their charges so that significant areas of weakness in individuals games were worked on and overcome, or at the very least improved. I'll stick with the example of Burgess, he is very passionate in his game as evidenced by his defence (which by the well used adage is 90% about attitude) but no coach at Super Level (where he plays most of his Rugby) has sat him down and said "Burgo your passing is crap, that is all you are going to do at training for the next 6 months unless you get it right. If you still don't get it right you won't have a spot."

Have a look at the Tahs players and ask yourself which players in the squad have improved on their core skills and play under this coaching regime?