Waratahs 2012

[RedsHappy]

There are plenty of ways to get people in the gate, the Reds are winning and playing a great style of rugby. And they do have Mike Harris, who generated some interest at the start of the season coming out of the NPC. I don't think the current success of the Reds is proof of a closer 'community connection' to the team, just that people like to watch a winning side playing great footy. I wager that they could have 10 kiwis in there and still get the same crowds if they played like the have this year....And high tower you conveniently gloss over the fact that Sarel Pretorius was one of the season's top tryscorers, and was right up there for linebreaks and try assists. His defence will improve as he is still a young player, like Phipps. As WJ says Sarel may not get 1000s through the gates, but he will certainly provide more interest than any of the names you listed there.

IMO, Barb you and WJ are on the right track in building recommendations for a serious Tahs' 'revival' in 2012 and beyond. As you both imply, the 'elephant in the room' for the NSWRU/Tahs as at end of S15 2011 is most critically the very serious decline in crowd numbers (which continued, vs 2010's direct comparison, in relative % terms at the ANZ Brumbies match). With the end point of 2011 SFS crowd numbers in the 13-14,000 range, the economics of this are highly negative for the Tahs commercial viability if that trend is not materially reversed in 2012/3. There will soon be large impacts on sponsorship motivation and the $s they'll pay, and the Tahs operating overheads are significant like all mainline pro football teams. Avoiding these types of issues with a head-in-the-sand mindset for 5+ years was what drove the QRU into a near-death experience, and it could happen to the NSWRU just as easily. If the Tahs start to badly fade in NSW's sports heartlands, the negative consequences for Aus rugby will be massive.

To drift on with marginal and cautious 'improvements' that do not go to the fundamentals of rebuilding the Tahs as a true championship team is likely be the most risky course of all, despite its attraction in terms of maintaining various status quo elements pleasing to the oddly constructed Waratahs and NSWRU boards. IMO, a radical course of integrated actions is essential, and possible. As WJ has said, the Tahs have the best forwards (all of raw talent, skill and attitude) in the S15, the core problems are holistic execution excellence, maintained consistently, manifestly second rate backs/attack coaching and some key backs talent gaps, and elements of culture and leadership that, as Tom C rightly said yesterday, perpetrate continuity not correction of errors and flawed game plans, and an inability to conquer enough of the 'big moments'. The symptoms of these problems (and maybe others) are best expressed in the Tahs' inability this year to beat any of the top 6 teams bar the Reds, and to not be able to once win away.

My recommendations (as an admirer of what's best about the Tahs and someone who'd be delighted to see them as S15 champs asap, for the good of all Aus rugby):

- do not promote Foley as Head Coach in 2012, and, as decent a man as he is, Hickey must be retired from the Tahs. Instead go for a world-class proven coach that has a record of converting a fine team into a championship team and comprehensively building good culture and the right support coaching infrastructure;

- critical to hire an outstanding backs and attack coach, from any global source. Perhaps consider hiring B Dwyer as a kind of core skills coaching mentor and strategist - he has such deep knowledge of all the Tahs' goods and bads;

- has Matt B performed well-enough as kicking coach? Perhaps not, but with KB (Kurtley Beale) gone precision kicking from hand and tee will be just as important as it always is; consider recruiting a top flight AFL kicking and catching coach (as the ABs did years ago);

- do NOT bring ex-players back as coaches. A refreshed culture (but preserving the best traditional strengths) is needed at the Tahs, old players revive and magnify conflicted player loyalties and more often than not fail as coaches;

- even if there are risks, take them, and hire 3-4 'star' players from league or globally that will have crowd pull and media magnetism. Could J Wilkinson be interested in coming to Australia for a couple of years? And are all of the most dazzling league players reprobates, probably not. As SBW made clear last year, he qualifies as an Aussie player (did we ever approach him?), very few observers would say his move to union has been anything other than truly worth the effort;

Above all, do it bold, do it big, take no prisoners, aim very high, and correct every known flaw in the total Tahs' infrastructure in one major change program. IMO, this is the best path to a true performance breakthrough for the Tahs. Tinkering and pussy-footing around and avoiding the really hard issues principally to protect the status quo, will get the Tahs nowhere but potentially needing a QRU-style financial bail-out in 2013.

 

[waratahjesus]

Great write up reds happy one thing I would ad, any coaching change, no matter what it is, sign them for at least 3 if not 4 years, sign them on the back of the coaches vision, then fuck off and leave them to it for that period of time, if the team doesn't perform for a few weeks, have some trust in the program and don't out pressure on to change it unless it's completely off the rails.

 

[Jets]

While the Reds and the Tahs will always feature players predominantly from their respective states, I hope you're not implying that the Reds' current success hasn't been achieved without the use of import players from outside Queensland?

The Fainga'a's have been a very important part of the Reds success as has Robinson, Samo and to a lesser extent Harris. I am saying that NSW and Qld should look at locals first then go outside that group if required. Both teams have the local numbers to do so.

 

[tigerland12]

The Fainga'a's have been a very important part of the Reds success as has Robinson, Samo and to a lesser extent Harris. I am saying that NSW and Qld should look at locals first then go outside that group if required. Both teams have the local numbers to do so.

The core of the Reds side are all Queensland born and raised though: Horwill, Genia, Cooper (kinda), Daley, Simmons, Ioane. Which when you look at it have been our best players along with Beau Robinson. I think that is the basis of the Reds revival of the last few years, these players were all brought up through the ranks and the team formed around them. For sides going through re-building phases (not saying the Tahs are, but changes are happening), you need to bring these players through and have the confidence that the side will build around them.

 

[waratahjesus]

The core of the Reds side are all Queensland born and raised though: Horwill, Genia, Cooper (kinda), Daley, Simmons, Ioane. Which when you look at it have been our best players along with Beau Robinson. I think that is the basis of the Reds revival of the last few years, these players were all brought up through the ranks and the team formed around them. For sides going through re-building phases (not saying the Tahs are, but changes are happening), you need to bring these players through and have the confidence that the side will build around them.

I guess the pointi was making earlier relates to the fact that the tahs arnt rebuilding, they have players in place capable of winning the comp, therefore as a professional organization they have to make the choice of if they blood young players in the few positions available or use the import to plug a gap in the hope of instant success.

As hawko has said, the tahs do need to build younger players for squad turnover but in my opinion there is no reason they can't do both. The most frustrating thing for me would be in four years time we lose half our forward pack and don't have a trophy to show for it.

 

[Clawhammer]

The core of the Reds side are all Queensland born and raised though: Horwill, Genia, Cooper (kinda), Daley, Simmons, Ioane. Which when you look at it have been our best players along with Beau Robinson. I think that is the basis of the Reds revival of the last few years, these players were all brought up through the ranks and the team formed around them. For sides going through re-building phases (not saying the Tahs are, but changes are happening), you need to bring these players through and have the confidence that the side will build around them.

I though Genia was born in PNG and only came to Australia for High School?

 

[Slim 293]

The core of the Reds side are all Queensland born and raised though: Horwill, Genia, Cooper (kinda), Daley, Simmons, Ioane. Which when you look at it have been our best players along with Beau Robinson. I think that is the basis of the Reds revival of the last few years, these players were all brought up through the ranks and the team formed around them. For sides going through re-building phases (not saying the Tahs are, but changes are happening), you need to bring these players through and have the confidence that the side will build around them.

But there have also been a number of valuable imports:

S Fainga'a, A Fainga'a, Mike Harris, Beau Robinson, Samo, Wallace-Harrison...

I'm not doubting that the Reds (like the Tahs) are predominantly made up of players from their own state, or the importance of hanging onto locals...

But I don't think that's the reason at all for their success... it's about how they play together...

Edit: I also completely agree with you about having a core group of players to build around...

 

[RedsHappy]

I guess the pointi was making earlier relates to the fact that the tahs arnt rebuilding, they have players in place capable of winning the comp, therefore as a professional organization they have to make the choice of if they blood young players in the few positions available or use the import to plug a gap in the hope of instant success.

As hawko has said, the tahs do need to build younger players for squad turnover but in my opinion there is no reason they can't do both. The most frustrating thing for me would be in four years time we lose half our forward pack and don't have a trophy to show for it.

Understood WJ. But I think you'd agree that, even with all the forwards' talent in the world, if the Tahs don't get the right, very good (and stable) players in at 9 and 10, they'll likely never win the S15 championship that on paper they surely deserve to. Whether by local or global import, rapid internal Tahs promotion, or DNA transplant, IMO these positions must be fixed by/in 2012 with top talent.

This is precisely the ruthless principle adopted by Link, and rightly: the late 2009 Reds had no decent 7, enter D Braid, and he was _crucial_ to the Reds 2010 revival (witness the Reds' difficulties in 2010 when he was injured later in that season). Pure import. Ditto the 'hard lessons' of 2011's Rnds 1 and 2 for the Reds: Braid's absence proved a major gap beyond doubt, enter stage right one B Robinson, local import. Was that a crucial move, yes, see every Reds' game since the Cru with Robinson out, Reds have struggled with forwards dominance at the breakdown, and only Gill's timely arrival reversed the decline in that department.

Like it or not: the modern professional game dictates that winning consistently is far more important than 'selection purity' from a local franchise perspective. (Needless to say, if you need to import, it's got to be a really good call, not a mediocre 'maybe' that just gap-fills.)

 

[qwerty51]

The core of the Reds side are all Queensland born and raised though: Horwill, Genia, Cooper (kinda), Daley, Simmons, Ioane..

Daley, nope. Cooper, nope. Ioane, nope. Genia, nope.

 

[tigerland12]

Daley, nope. Cooper, nope. Ioane, nope. Genia, nope.

Through the school system, yes yes yes. Daley I might be wrong.

 

[qwerty51]

You said born and raised. Those 4 were not born in QLD.

 

[tigerland12]

You said born and raised. Those 4 were not born in QLD.

Oh sorry mate, I'll ensure I am completely correct and clear about what I'm saying next time, just for your sake. I'd hate to be wrong and then have you point me out over some trivial fact.

 

[DPK]

The only thing trivial about your exchanges is your last post. Of course you have to be correct and clear about what you're saying.

 

[tigerland12]

uuuggghh not getting into some shitty arguement over my clearness. The point I was making, and didn't communicate properlly, is that alot of those players had come through the school system.

 

[Ruggo]

Maybe the greatest import is the coach himself. Gone are the days where wouldn't consider appointing somebody who wore another teams jersey (especially the arch rival NSW). QLD rugby has stepped into the age of profesional sport. Beau is a good example of culture as there were no guarintees that he would break into the Reds but seen enough of a chance to attempt to.

One thing I have noticed from watching the code is that Foley is a good operator and he should be offered the head coaches job with the full support of the board to appoint his assistants as he sees fit. Foley currently has about the same level of experience that Link did when he joined the Tahs. Appoint the man now while player and coach market is free enough for him to appoint those who suit his vision.

 

[Crow]

If the Tahs appointed Foley head coach, this may have a detrimental effect on his obvious value as a forwards coach.
I'm not sure that I'd be willing to give it up unless Foley made it clear that he wanted the head coach's job.
FWIW I'd be considering a new backs/skills coach, as well.

 

[qwerty51]

From what I saw on The Code after the first Blues game, Foley was already the de facto coach.

 

[RedsHappy]

From what I saw on The Code after the first Blues game, Foley was already the de facto coach.

As I've said below, IMO this could be a major mistake and all too typical of the NSWRU's 'slow incrementalism' and relatively timid approach to breaking through to a major new era of change and enhanced performance for the Tahs. And with the late 2011 crowd figures where they are, how many more chances will the NSWRU get to achieve a genuine Tahs' breakthrough to a No 1 position, how many more 'gradual' iterations of a vision for the Tahs as champions can there be?

I think Foley is an outstanding specialist coach (Deans' falling out with him in late 2008 was one of Deans' biggest errors of judgement), but if he's been de facto Tahs' Head Coach in 2011, there are IMO reasons to doubt his optimal suitability as such.

I would argue the weight of evidence is that a Jake White-like radical choice with excellent, proven Head Coach coaching credentials at elite level is necessary to bring a completely fresh perspective on how to convert the Tahs' fantastic potential into a championship team. My fear is that Foley does not yet possess the completeness of experience needed, and, even more importantly, may be enamoured with a need to comply with Driver Avenue's introverted preferences and historical biases, vs being given the power to completely overhaul what is required to make a final, successful Tahs push to conquer that elusive S15 mountain top. One or two more years of 'nearly got there, but not quite' and (related) crowd declines, and the Tahs could be in serious trouble, sadly.

 

[fatprop]

Bullocks, Link was a "outstanding specialist coach" as well, until he got his chance.

Foley deserves his.

 

[What2040]

Through the school system, yes yes yes. Daley I might be wrong.

daley went to All saints on the Gold Coast