Waratahs 2012

[Slash]

I dint think the problem has been a lack of creativity, it's been a lack of consistency. I can't remember the last time we had a settled back line at the Tahs. There is always change through injury and form and with it we seem to always take a step back to go forward. The Tahs have the strike weapons just need a bit of luck from the injury gods and they will be fine.

gotta admire your loyalty there WJ. However, until they address the issue of Hangers not being up to it at that level and Carter's inability to catch and pass, it wouldn't matter who's outside them. Barnes should play 12, but it still doesnt fix the isssue of 10.............IMO

 

[Gnostic]

I have to agree with WJ to a certain extent. The biggest issue at the Tahs has been for years the conservative tactics. The personel have changed and so many different players have put on the 10 jersey and different coaches been at the helm, but the Tahs really haven't played any differently. They always start with a flash and then grind out wins and close losses. There is an overwhelming focus on trying not to lose and not on trying to win. I hope that Foley and Gafney will bring back the focus on winning, but they have some serious personel issues. I hope that Barnes gets the Captain's position and maybe Dennis as VC. I think many here are starting to see the folly of letting Mowen go with the likelyhood of Palu and Elsom being broken, and the likelyhood that even if they do play history suggests their time on the paddock is limitted. Mowen was the future and a Captaincy candidate IMO. Also a similar story with Vickerman, who will want to show a damn sight more than he did at the RWC to deserve a starting spot.

I am looking forward to the Super season but I am not brimming with confidence for the Tahs looking at the squad.
Injured or recovering:-
1. Robinson (Next best nowhere near as good)
2. TPN (Next best nowhere near as good)
3. Kepu (Next best nowhere near as good)
8. Palu
6. Elsom
5. Vickerman
13. Horne (Next best nowhere near as good)
11. Mitchell (Next best nowhere near as good)

So if both Elsom and Palu are not fully fit come February which will Dennis replace and who will fill the other spot, then who covers the bench backrow spot?
The injured also leave massive depth issues for the bench. I also have concerns about the depth at 9.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It is hard to play anything other than conservatively when you have Carter gumming up the works

 

[Gnostic]

It is hard to play anything other than conservatively when you have Carter gumming up the works

The Tahs have played that way no matter who at 12, and in any event a conservative game plan can be beautiful if it is executed well (Reds V Stormers this year). I am not a Carter fan and have been fairly negative about his play myself in the past, but he is not and was not the problem with the Tahs. Like the Wallabies this year at the RWC, they didn't try to win, they tried not to lose and it worked against the Boks but not when it matters against a skilled aggressive opponent (eg Ireland & ABs) similarly the Tahs, grind out victories against so many sides but struggle against the top sides when they attack well and even against the minnows when they really come to play.

 

[Slash]

I have to agree with WJ to a certain extent. The biggest issue at the Tahs has been for years the conservative tactics. The personel have changed and so many different players have put on the 10 jersey and different coaches been at the helm, but the Tahs really haven't played any differently. They always start with a flash and then grind out wins and close losses. There is an overwhelming focus on trying not to lose and not on trying to win. I hope that Foley and Gafney will bring back the focus on winning, but they have some serious personel issues. I hope that Barnes gets the Captain's position and maybe Dennis as VC. I think many here are starting to see the folly of letting Mowen go with the likelyhood of Palu and Elsom being broken, and the likelyhood that even if they do play history suggests their time on the paddock is limitted. Mowen was the future and a Captaincy candidate IMO. Also a similar story with Vickerman, who will want to show a damn sight more than he did at the RWC to deserve a starting spot.

I am looking forward to the Super season but I am not brimming with confidence for the Tahs looking at the squad.
Injured or recovering:-
1. Robinson (Next best nowhere near as good)
2. TPN (Next best nowhere near as good)
3. Kepu (Next best nowhere near as good)
8. Palu
6. Elsom
5. Vickerman
13. Horne (Next best nowhere near as good)
11. Mitchell (Next best nowhere near as good)

So if both Elsom and Palu are not fully fit come February which will Dennis replace and who will fill the other spot, then who covers the bench backrow spot?
The injured also leave massive depth issues for the bench. I also have concerns about the depth at 9.

i think the biggest issue is that there is no apparent successor to the vacant 7 spot........

this is a good and a bad thing..........maybe the conservative play was a result of the 7 and 12.............who despite other comments on personnel, were there pretty much for nearly evvery game.

it remains to be seen whether McCutcheon or Alcock are up to it consistently at that level

 

[qwerty51]

Gnostic you are on your own in with regards to Vickerman, he is still the premier lock in Australia. What exactly were you not impressed with during the WC and the TNs?

 

[Jnor]

The Tahs have played that way no matter who at 12, and in any event a conservative game plan can be beautiful if it is executed well (Reds V Stormers this year). I am not a Carter fan and have been fairly negative about his play myself in the past, but he is not and was not the problem with the Tahs. Like the Wallabies this year at the RWC, they didn't try to win, they tried not to lose and it worked against the Boks but not when it matters against a skilled aggressive opponent (eg Ireland & ABs) similarly the Tahs, grind out victories against so many sides but struggle against the top sides when they attack well and even against the minnows when they really come to play.

Gnostic you put it a lot more politely than I would have. Thanks for the trolling, IS, but blaming Carter for the Tahs' problems is so 2009 it's not funny. I actually thought you were a bit better than that but I guess I was wrong.

Anyway, I can't really see where Vicks could have gone better than he did this year apart from somehow winning the World Cup. I think he would walk into the Tahs starting XV among the very first picked and would probably be captain if he wasn't an old fart.

 

[Sully]

It hurts to say this but I think I prefer Sharpe to Vickerman.


Sent using Tapatalk on a very old phone

 

[waratahjesus]

gotta admire your loyalty there WJ. However, until they address the issue of Hangers not being up to it at that level and Carter's inability to catch and pass, it wouldn't matter who's outside them. Barnes should play 12, but it still doesnt fix the isssue of 10.............IMO

Obviously loyalty involved.

But the thing is, Hangers has shown he is up to it. When they had hangers and barnes at 10-12 a couple of years back and left them there we went through south Africa undefeated and won a couple more to. When barnes gets injured and they through hangers in he suffers a bit. Maybe it's due to lack of game time, maybe through lack of understanding, but it's not actually cos he isn't up to it. They are also bringing Bernard "diehard" foley through, he will get more time this year.

As for Carter, this debate comes up every month here. QLD wn a championship with A.Finger playing at centre. carter is never going to captain Australia but I have never seen him play for a team in any comp and have a bad game. He has never let anyone down and does more positive in every game he plays than negative. I struggle to find other players even at the Tahs I can say th same thing about.

 

[Bruce Ross]

As for Carter, this debate comes up every month here. QLD wn a championship with A.Finger playing at centre. carter is never going to captain Australia but I have never seen him play for a team in any comp and have a bad game. He has never let anyone down and does more positive in every game he plays than negative. I struggle to find other players even at the Tahs I can say th same thing about.

Use of the "agree" button, or its new equivalent "like", doesn't do justice to my support for you on this issue, wj. Tom Carter, for all his imagined faults, is arguably the most consistently performing player in Australian rugby. Not the best by any means, but one who puts in a positive contribution every time he takes the field.

I know I am inviting the lunatic fringe to spew their bile on this subject, but I console myself with the thought that it's a poor circus that can't afford one clown, or in the present instance, a troupe of them.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Use of the "agree" button, or its new equivalent "like", doesn't do justice to my support for you on this issue, wj. Tom Carter, for all his imagined faults, is arguably the most consistently performing player in Australian rugby. Not the best by any means, but one who puts in a positive contribution every time he takes the field.

I know I am inviting the lunatic fringe to spew their bile on this subject, but I console myself with the thought that it's a poor circus that can't afford one clown, or in the present instance, a troupe of them.

I'm torn: he tries hard and I wonder how it was that the faults you call imagined were corrected in one game this year when Kafe had a go at his lack of passing skills - the next week he threw a very deft little catch-and-pass on a blind side loop. Previously unheard of.
It was as if no one had ever talked to him about it...but that would be to blame the coaches.

 

[Sully]

My dislike of TC as a player has waned. I believe he got better this season. Personally, and it may be the Reds supporter talking, I prefer Ant Fainga'a. As for his public personality, not a fan at all.

 

[Lee Grant]

Can someone tell me the full list of players in and players out for the Waratahs squad for 2012?

Out
Sonesi Anesi (Japan)
Kurtley Beale (Rebels)
Luke Burgess (Toulouse)
Ryan Cross (Racing Metro)
Josh Holmes (Burgoin)
Ben Mowen (Brumbies)
Pat O'Connor (Agen)
Phil Waugh (Retired)
Al Baxter (Retired)

Non-contracted players used in 2011 but not signed for 2012:
Ben Batger, Hugh Perrett, Elvis Taione

In
Bernard Foley * (Oz Sevens)
Dan Vickerman * (Cambridge/Northampton)
Greg Peterson (Waratahs Pro Academy)
Rocky Elsom (Brumbies)
Sarel Pretorius (Cheetahs)
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (Brumbies)

* Played one game for Waratahs in 2011

 

[waratahjesus]

I'm torn: he tries hard and I wonder how it was that the faults you call imagined were corrected in one game this year when Kafe had a go at his lack of passing skills - the next week he threw a very deft little catch-and-pass on a blind side loop. Previously unheard of.
It was as if no one had ever talked to him about it...but that would be to blame the coaches.

He has always been able to pass, the thing is, it really isn't what has been asked of him over the last couple of years. If you watched the Tahs back line over the last couple of years, Toms job was to gain advantage through hitting it up and fast recycling. This allowed curtly to join the back line as a 2nd five and gain width in the play for the next phase. Tom did his job very well, what happened next really isn't on him.

 

[jauzy19]

Out
Ryan Cross (Racing Metro)

Cross played for Perpignan as a "World Cup joker" from August to October, then he was due to sign for Racing-Métro but finally he didn't join them because his wife wanted to come back in Australia.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

He has always been able to pass, the thing is, it really isn't what has been asked of him over the last couple of years. If you watched the Tahs back line over the last couple of years, Toms job was to gain advantage through hitting it up and fast recycling. This allowed curtly to join the back line as a 2nd five and gain width in the play for the next phase. Tom did his job very well, what happened next really isn't on him.

Same job he has for Uni?
Its not just off 1st phase that he cant/wont pass - in general play he just tucks the ball irrespective of the situation

 

[waratahjesus]

Same job he has for Uni?
Its not just off 1st phase that he cant/wont pass - in general play he just tucks the ball irrespective of the situation

I can't say I've watched a heap of uni, just what's televised. Regardless of how many times he passes, I again struggle to see how anyone can watch him play and not see that he is outplaying pretty much every team member and opposition player on attitude alone.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think his attitude is fantastic - except when he's playing for uni: then I think he's up himself.
Somewhere in one of these threads I said he should be given a run higher up on attitude alone.....

 

[wamberal]

I think his attitude is fantastic - except when he's playing for uni: then I think he's up himself.
Somewhere in one of these threads I said he should be given a run higher up on attitude alone.....

Carter's "attitude" would be worth a 10 points start to the opposition at the higher level of the game.

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic you are on your own in with regards to Vickerman, he is still the premier lock in Australia. What exactly were you not impressed with during the WC and the TNs?

How is he the premier lock in Oz? I am not alone in my thinking as you would like from your post. Before the RWC quite a few here were dubious to say the least regarding Vickerman's assured Wallaby jumper without playing any Super Rugby time let alone recalling his last forrays to a RWC where Sharpe was blamed for the woeful set piece yet V. walked away scot free.

Tell me how exactly Vickerman improved the lineout or the scrum. He was back to his best in giving away stupid penalties that even the Kiwi commentators wryly noted. I failed to see the "stiffening" of our defensive linbe above what Sharpe provides, he certainly doesn't carry anywhere near as effectively (as Sharpe nearly always gets of the advantage line unlike most of the other Oz forwards) and despite the myth the statistics really don't show that Sharpe has poor security when he carries.

SO lets sumarise starting with the set peices which for a tight forward should be the first box ticked:-
1. Scrum - with Vickerman wasn't any better or worse than with Sharpe.
2. Lineout - Immensely improved with Sharpe. Given that the Lineout was supposed to be Vickerman's forte his displays at the RWC were woeful. But lets protect Vickerman and blame the throwers, or the lifters or the immense skills of the opposition. Fact is the problem with the other variables the same was not as apparent with Sharpe on the park. Still the best gauge on Sharpe's Lineout skill is the rating he has from his opponents, with Matfield amoung others rating him one of the best in the world.
3. Ball Carrying - I did not see one effective ball carry from Vickerman in the RWC. Sharpe for the limtted time he got was much more effective and without Palu or a fit TPN or Kepu in position there is not a decent ball runner in the Australian pack. Elsom is only good for running in the centres or on the wing when he is fit, as is Alexander, Pocock is usually buried somewhere in a ruck and McCalman is like a blowfly on the window pane for effectiveness. So without Sharpe there was zero go forward from the forwards.
4. Defence - Vickerman gave away the silly penalties that he was renowned for prior to his Northern sojourn. Sharpe on the other hand defended just as well, admittedly without the abrasiveness.
5. Set peice defence - a couple of years ago I was very happy to see the Wallabies pack actually challenge the maul of opponents with Dean Mumm and Sharpe regularly turning over the opposition at this phase. Where has that gone? I think it went with Michael Foley to a large degree but Sharpe has continued to display the infiltration skills that emerged a few years ago. Without him on the field the tactic is always the same do not competet on the lineout throw and attempt to sack the maul as it forms. How many penalties were given up that way this year and last I wonder?

In any event for the Tahs I would expect him to take a lock spot with Mumm to 6 whilst Elsom is unfit. Douglas to partner him if he has recovered from his second year woes, if not I would be looking to Peterson to step up. Most will be waiting with trepidation for the return of Timani, but a big question mark still remains over the fatigue factor with him.