Waratahs 2011

[en_force_er]

Not to the point but I've always wondered why Deans gave Douglas so little time in those two Baas games and am none the wiser about it now.

There are a few pretty good rational reasons why he didn't get much time, I wouldn't necessarily agree with those reasons but they'd be perfectly rational.

The fact, however, that Simmons got all this Wallaby nullifies this point.

 

[Gnostic]

Putting on 8kgs sounds good and it's better than an older bloke putting that on, but I have a concern that a 7% increase in weight in a relatively short time, may have its problems.

I'll be watching his work rate this year to see if his weight gain was fools gold.

Not to the point but I've always wondered why Deans gave Douglas so little time in those two Baas games and am none the wiser about it now.

If that weight is in effective muscle and helps him in the TH Lock spot to achor and drive the Tahs scrum all good. Even if he only plays 65 min that is fine by me. How long is it since Oz really had a physically dominant lock - Gavin Morgan? Eales of course but aside from him and he wasn't physically dominant in a power sense. Horwill could be if he could stay fit.

I would love to see some balance in the second row like the great Oz second rows had, such as McCall/Eales - Gavin/Eales - Cutler/Williams A tall athlete paired with a tall brute for physical power. Note that ENgland used this type of balance to great effect at the 2003 RWC and NZ is following the system as well currently.

 

[Gnostic]

There are a few pretty good rational reasons why he didn't get much time, I wouldn't necessarily agree with those reasons but they'd be perfectly rational.

The fact, however, that Simmons got all this Wallaby nullifies this point.

Rationality is a factor of perspective.

 

[Groucho]

Does it look like TPN has trimmed the afro a little?

I know there is some perspective involved, but TPN looks like a midget compared to Douglas.

 

[en_force_er]

Rationality is a factor of perspective.

I know, that wasn't my point.

My point is if a player with similar Super rugby experience and almost exactly the same age had a bigger part in the Wallaby set-up then there would be no good rational argument along those lines.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Perhaps Deans see's Simmons as the lighter more athletic partner of a future Simmons/Douglas Wallaby pairing. Would certainly explain why Simmons has had Test experience while Douglas has trained (from the looks of it) the house down to become the bulkier enforcer. Its the role I had envisioned for Horwill but alas he appears to be rather injury prone. I know Deans tenure post-RWC is very reliant on results regarding the tornament but at least imo he seems to be keeping to form and looking to the future regardless of the outcome. If he leaves then its he's legacy, if he stays its forward thinking. He evidently had a word with Richard Kingi regarding his physical development leading up to the EOYT as well.

 

[Hawko]

I know, that wasn't my point.
My point is if a player with similar Super rugby experience and almost exactly the same age had a bigger part in the Wallaby set-up then there would be no good rational argument along those lines.

I don't think I follow you. Simmons appeared to be roughly the same age and experience, and many judges (me included) said he had a good S14 but weaker than Douglas, but still he got Deans' blessing. Short of rogering Deans' missus there did not seem to be any rational reasons. Had Deans given Douglas more game time and then said it had been a line ball decision I would have been fine with that, but Douglas appeared to be behind from the start of the international campaign. I, for one, cannot wait for the Reds games. Douglas vs Simmons and Horwill is going to be absolutely epic. Could be enough to start a tsunami.

Come to that the front row clash will have the same sort of ginger. TPN vs Fainga'a, Fuse vs Daley, Robbo vs Slipper in the scrum and then Fuse vs Slipper in the tight.

 

[Lee Grant]

I had no qualms about Simmons getting precedence for the Wallabies over Douglas and even said this should be the case during the S14 last year. They are about the same age but Douglas, an elite schools player, had been in the Reds system since he left school at a young age and he was in both the Oz U/19 team and the U/20's.


Whilst Rob was already playing in the ARC in 2007 Kane was a skinny 19 y.o. starting his first real rugby for Southern Districts. He knew so little about the game that they had to tell him what to do in the lineout. Foley spotted this unheard of stork at training for SD and despite the fact that he had a long way to go physically, he was so whole-hearted that he was invited to participate in some opposed Wallaby training sessions.


He's had some physical set backs since then including stress fractures in the back, not unusual for a growing teenager; but if the 2010 S14 is any guide it looks as though that is all behind him now. Foley said last year that he couldn't believe his physical development since 2007 and that before and after photo comparisons would have been comical.


With that background one would always have preferred Simmons over Douglas if only one was taken on tour - and didn't young Rob seize his chance? In the tests against Italy and France he played the most physical games I have seen him play.


The playing field for both young locks will level out in a year or two and Simmon's head start won't mean beans, assuming Douglas can repeat what he did last year. This situation, plus the presence of a fit Horwill, will only be good for the Wallabies down the track.


No, I had no beef with Simmo getting preference for the EOYT when I made my earlier remarks - just curious as to why Douglas got only a few minutes for the Baas. It didn't make sense.

 

[Groucho]

I don't think I follow you. Simmons appeared to be roughly the same age and experience, and many judges (me included) said he had a good S14 but weaker than Douglas, but still he got Deans' blessing. Short of rogering Deans' missus there did not seem to be any rational reasons. Had Deans given Douglas more game time and then said it had been a line ball decision I would have been fine with that, but Douglas appeared to be behind from the start of the international campaign. I, for one, cannot wait for the Reds games. Douglas vs Simmons and Horwill is going to be absolutely epic. Could be enough to start a tsunami.

Come to that the front row clash will have the same sort of ginger. TPN vs Fainga'a, Fuse vs Daley, Robbo vs Slipper in the scrum and then Fuse vs Slipper in the tight.

The Tahs will cream all those front row encounters, excepting that Baxter is ordinary in the tight. TPN vs. Fainga'a especially is some kind of mismatch.

The second row encounters will be interesting.

 

[Gagger]

Would be nice if the Simmons / Douglas story goes the same way as the Beale / Cooper one. Another two quality young players.

They both have the right physical attributes, but my impression is that they're both of the the tight head rather than line-out master lock variety. True?

 

[Lee Grant]

Simmons plays on the LH side in the scrums deferring to either Van or Kev. That is the preference of the coach who knows a bit about scrums and judges the strength or power (or whatever word Bruce will give the tick to) of those others to support the THP, as superior. Mind you: Kev was injured in the first game in 2010 playing 6 and hasn't been seen since; so who knows? Douglas plays on the TH side, as does young Peterson in the Tahs SRT Group.

Both are good at lineout time though Simmons has more experience. I would have judged Douglas superior in the grunt department but that Simmons stepped up in that regard at the end of the Oz EOYT.

This is relative to each other. More important is how they compare to against all opponents after another year or two. I doubt if this matter will be resolved this year and fondly hope that they will both be progressing that fast that it will be too close to call.

 

[Gagger]

I guess my question is around whether one of them looks to have the athleticism and nouse to be the next outstanding line-out lock - Victor style. Not just a decent jumper.

Sounds maybe too early to tell?

 

[Langthorne]

The Tahs will cream all those front row encounters, excepting that Baxter is ordinary in the tight. TPN vs. Fainga'a especially is some kind of mismatch.

The second row encounters will be interesting.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it too

 

[Langthorne]

Would be nice if the Simmons / Douglas story goes the same way as the Beale / Cooper one. Another two quality young players.

Court?

 

[fatprop]

I was amazed that Douglas was not given more time with the Wobs, we just lack tight forward "workers" in the style of Thorn and Botha (sans idiocy) whilst we have plenty of mobile locks.

I am not in anyway questioning Simmons as they appear to be different styles of players, just what the Wobs lack, even Sharpe to me is more of a mobile style lock and Chisholm & Mumm aren't the answer.

 

[fatprop]

Shit some people have poor memories. Wasn't Vicks part of a humiliated forward pack in 2007 and a key & senior part of it at that. Hardly something that inspires one to say he would be picked in a World 15 starting position.

Vickerman wasn't the reason we lost that game, he gave his 100%, it just wasn't enough.

 

[TOCC]

Vickerman wasn't the reason we lost that game, he gave his 100%, it just wasn't enough.

he was merely a piece of the larger puzzle... but he was a piece nonetheless...when we talk about big game's and physicality, the 2007 RWC cant be ignored

 

[tranquility]

he was merely a piece of the larger puzzle... but he was a piece nonetheless...when we talk about big game's and physicality, the 2007 RWC cant be ignored

He was underdone wasn't he? coming back from an injury - or has my memory gone hazy? Vickerman has put in some enormous performances in tri-nations matches, and more importantly he has done it in tight while also running the line-out.

Can't wait to see him on the paddock again.

 

[Bruce Ross]

He was underdone wasn't he? coming back from an injury - or has my memory gone hazy? Vickerman has put in some enormous performances in tri-nations matches, and more importantly he has done it in tight while also running the line-out.

Can't wait to see him on the paddock again.

Good points, tranquility.

It's very easy for the knockers to bag a player on the basis of particular performances. The rigours of professional rugby are such that if a coach could only use players who were fully fit and injury free they would rarely be able to get a decent team on the paddock. Anyone who doesn't realise this has no knowledge of high level sport.

The recent assertion by various contributors on this site that Vickerman has not been an absolutely world class lock tells us much more about them than it does about the player.

 

[Gnostic]

Vickerman wasn't the reason we lost that game, he gave his 100%, it just wasn't enough.

No single player was the reason that game was lost. The application of the team, especially the forwards was and he was a senior part of that team. Also the enduring memory of that game for me is the total disintergration of the Wallaby scrum including the splitting and detachment of the second row.

People have always spouted on about Vickerman but IMO he has never dominated the way Eales did or the elite second rows from NZ or SA did. There is no doubt at all that he was the best second rower in Oz after Eales & Giffen retired, but I just cannot buy the excessive enthusiasm that his very late return this year is generating.