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Waratahs 2011

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Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Well argued Hawko. Link signed Beale from school and used him at 10 in 07 and 08 - They made the final with him at 10 for the whole season. Deans has also used him well at fullback and other positions. Bottom line is the kid is good but the Tahs could not see it - hope he goes well and gets another go at 10

Right now 15 will be fine, we can think about 10 in a couple of seasons when injuries and overseas postings thin out our stocks at 10. Cooper and Barnes give us good cover at 10, and JOC (James O'Connor) is not bad either. Just as long as Giteau never pulls on a gold 10 jumper I'll be a happy man.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
I watched KB (Kurtley Beale) play in a schoolboys test where he was superb at 10, but when Quade came on off the bench KB (Kurtley Beale) then ran at fullback and LOVED the wide passes from Cooper.

Yeah, I remember it too. That would have been 2005. Lealiifano and Lucas were back at school as the incumbent flyhalf and backups from the year before but upstarts Beale and Cooper superseded them. Beale was the starting flyhalf and Turner the starting fullback; then in the 2nd half what you said happened. In Canberra against NZ, I think Turner took Stapleton's wing spot after the switch and that may have happened versus Japan too at Scots.

The following year Beale was 10 and Cooper 12 and they had a ball and it was Cooper benefiting from Beale's pass at Hunter's Hill. [Reading my old programme now and I thought I could read a note about Beale as "looking fast" but on closer inspection the second word is "fat". On Cooper I wrote: "Hot-dogged when he made a break. Exciting but prone to throw miracle passes."]

I thought that both these guys would end up as Wallabies if they stayed in our game. I had seen KB (Kurtley Beale) since he was 13 and QC (Quade Cooper) for 2 years and they both looked like natural league players, but I thought if they both played union for Oz it would be as 10. Beale and 12. Cooper. How the rugby world turns.

I still haven't given up on KB (Kurtley Beale) as a 10 down the track and am glad that Deans appears to be giving him a role in that position on tour as he did with the Baas. With an injury to QC (Quade Cooper), plus somebody else, it's not out of the question that he would play flyhalf. His way of playing the position would be closer to Coopers' style than anybody else in the country and there would be a modicum of continuity.

It's interesting to note the names of other 2010 tourists in the Oz Schools main team in those 2 years apart from KB (Kurtley Beale) and QC (Quade Cooper): Pocock, McCutcheon, McCabe, McCalman, Simmons and Davies.

But I digress.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
:beale:I think you're wrong there, though not that you're not convinced; since you are the sole judge. But if you can hark back to his goal line defence this year you may recall that he had been staunch, and it had nothing to do with what number he had on his back. You may recall also that he put his shoulder into that big Kiwi lock who was in full flight and stopped him cold in the Bledisloe. It was as a fullback, of course - but it was much the same kind of tackle completion that you have to perform in the flyhalf channel when backrowers come at you from the scrum with ball in hand and a grin on the dial.

I've mentioned before that I have noticed an improvement in KB (Kurtley Beale)'s defence since the Tahs' tour of the RSA in 2009 and I think I'm right.
Lee, I don't wish to start or inflame a KB (Kurtley Beale) bagathon, but I would not agree his defence has been staunch.Was it the last test when he watched an AB score at his feet,when defending on the goal line?I am not saying he should have saved the try,but he should have at least got underneath him.
You mention the tackle he made on the AB lock, I agree it was a good tackle but to have missed him would have been appalling.
I believe it is easier to tackle the locks in full flight,as they can't dip and meet the defender with their shoulders at contact,as they do near the breakdown in the 10 12 channel.
Previous posts indicate that Deans agrees with you,and KB (Kurtley Beale) is training @ 10 as a backup to QC (Quade Cooper). I hope he gets his chance there & makes me eat humble pie.It can only be good for the Tah's & Wobblies.
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
I agree with you here Lee. Beale could be a stand-out 10 and would provide continuity to Coopers game if he is injured. Until then he can wreak havoc at 15.
 

#1 Tah

Chilla Wilson (44)
If the backline aint broke, dont fix it.

Burgess
Barnes
Mitchell
Carter
Horne
Turner
Beale

Holmes/McKibben
Halangahu
BKH

I dont see why ANYONE should be able to bag the Tahs' recruitment offices. Lets not be too quick to forget that we got Barnes, Cross and Mitchell, as well as re-signing Carter, Halangahu, Palu, Robinson, Brackin Kuraria-Henry, McCutcheon, Douglas and McKibben. Sure Anesi doesn't deserve a spot in the Tahs, but Hickey says he is going to use a rotation policy and if he gets one or two runs against the Lions and Cheetahs, is it really a disaster? You have all seen the work that our Tongan boys put in, and what makes you this these two are any different? In Anesi's case, everyone has a dodgey bout of form, just look at Berrick. So DONT sit back and wait for 2012, because the Tahs backline is in the best shape in recent memory.
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
It isn't just Anesi's underwhelming form, it is the fact that he is a kiwi. Why bring in an average foreigner when a talented local could be given a shot? The local doesn't have to be young and exciting - he could play a very conservative game (like Anesi) - but at least he'd be a local (and therefore another Aussie in the representative mix). It would also send a message to aspiring locals that the Tahs are looking to locals first.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
At this early stage, what are the general opinions on Josh Holmes vs Brendan McKibben? I'd be more inclined to start McKibben. I like Holmes, but he hasn't exactly set the world alight. Maybe it's time to give him a shot at 12 at the Super level, although this is now more difficult as Cross has arrived. Still if Horne breaks, he's an centre option off the bench IMO.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I still cannot understand the Cross signing. He has been very average for the last 18 months. In the Shield he failed to excell above some lower grade opponents.

As for the continued Hickey fixation with Carter at 12, that would be fine if you wish to continue with the narrow bash ball at 12 game plan, I though had hoped to see more. Carter is the limiting factor for the backline, he passes less, and less effectively at that, than the best bash ball carrier in NSW history, Nathan Grey. Surely the success of the Reds this year has shown the way that if you play some exciting Rugby the fans will come regardless of the win:loss. The continuance of the narrow game plans by the Tahs will see a further erosion of the attendance figures at Tahs games, for years it has been just the Tahs faithful that turn up.
 

#1 Tah

Chilla Wilson (44)
Surely the success of the Reds this year has shown the way that if you play some exciting Rugby the fans will come regardless of the win:loss. The continuance of the narrow game plans by the Tahs will see a further erosion of the attendance figures at Tahs games, for years it has been just the Tahs faithful that turn up.

[video=youtube;6UDE_yO_d6o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UDE_yO_d6o[/video]
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
For every one of those games you post there is two or three that could be posted as educational vid's on how to drive away your fan base. Not just from last year but from the last 10.

Like the Wallabies they have made an art of playing well in one or two games and getting almost there just to get the hopes up just to dash them.

When you have been a Tahs supporter for 30+ years like me you care less about the results and more about the mode of play. IMO the Reds were the best Australian team this year.

Sadly with the extremely limited backline players that Hickey and Co have signed this will not change. Oh well another two seasons of the same old shit approach.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
I still cannot understand the Cross signing. He has been very average for the last 18 months. In the Shield he failed to excell above some lower grade opponents.

As for the continued Hickey fixation with Carter at 12, that would be fine if you wish to continue with the narrow bash ball at 12 game plan, I though had hoped to see more. Carter is the limiting factor for the backline, he passes less, and less effectively at that, than the best bash ball carrier in NSW history, Nathan Grey. Surely the success of the Reds this year has shown the way that if you play some exciting Rugby the fans will come regardless of the win:loss. The continuance of the narrow game plans by the Tahs will see a further erosion of the attendance figures at Tahs games, for years it has been just the Tahs faithful that turn up.

"Carter is the limiting factor for the backline"- althought the Tahs backline played better once they dumped the two playmaker option and went with him. its a shame the highlights dont show it but he gets over the advantage line and recycles the ball quickly allowing kurtley to join the line as a second 5/8 and increase the width on the next phase, but then again, who am i to question popular opinion.

"Surely the success of the Reds this year has shown the way that if you play some exciting Rugby the fans will come regardless of the win:loss" - except that the reds havnt shown that at all. they had a fair few wins this year expecially against some good teams and were a shot of making the finals. come next year a few loses in a row and it will no longer be cool to support them. there was the factor of getting on a bandwagon going somewhere, if a horse pulls up lame and the wagon stops then people are just going to hop off and go back to complaining about people in sydney and what ever else happens in brisbane.

"The continuance of the narrow game plans by the Tahs will see a further erosion of the attendance figures at Tahs games" - the narrow game plan that saw the tahs score more trys and there back three score more than the reds? the same narrow game plan that saw the most trys by backs in a nsw team for years and years. The attendance figures will be alright this year with more derbys and NSWRU making sure all the games are on a saturday rather than the friday night hassle of making it to the SFS in traffic. its keeping it going after the newness wears off that will be the issue.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
For every one of those games you post there is two or three that could be posted as educational vid's on how to drive away your fan base. Not just from last year but from the last 10.

Like the Wallabies they have made an art of playing well in one or two games and getting almost there just to get the hopes up just to dash them.

When you have been a Tahs supporter for 30+ years like me you care less about the results and more about the mode of play. IMO the Reds were the best Australian team this year.

Sadly with the extremely limited backline players that Hickey and Co have signed this will not change. Oh well another two seasons of the same old shit approach.

I disagree - if they win the bloody thing playing like the most boring team on the planet, I will be happy. But they won't. That style gets you so far, but not far enough in Super Rugby historically.
I think the backs can be very effective - the backline that #1 Tah posted could work nicely if Barnes is allowed to play more like he played in latter weeks at club level - flatter, direct and aggressive, and he brings a very nice tactical kicking game too. As waratahjesus said Carter can be useful if he trucks it up, they recycle quickly, and Beale is used as a loose cannon in attack. Mitchell and Turner are plenty good at finishing. The back 3 offer a lot of danger on the counter-attack.
Sure there are a lot of "ifs", but I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Who knows, if someone straightens Cross up, he could be good too.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
To add to cyclo's post, I think a lot of the games when the Tah's have played "boring" or "ugly" football, the conditions or opposition have not allowed the sort of rugby everyone thinks the Reds play.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Everyone's on fire.

#1 Tah
Thanks for posting that clip. One of the reasons why I bagged my own team, the Tahs, for playing such boring rugby during most of 2010 is that I felt that I knew the players as well as anybody outside of people involved in the game, and knew they could play like that most of the time, but didn't.


There were occasions when play had to be narrow, such as against the Brumbies, and whilst closing out other games, but there were quite a few times in the season when they played too narrowly, for too long.


As meritorious as Carter is, he can be a firewall. When people extol his good attributes they are right, but not all of his strong points are conducive to adding value to those playing outside him. Sometimes they hinder it.


Players tend to play to their strengths, and if they are good at running through tackles they will try it a lot, and often times when an outside player has a better opportunity. They also avoid their weaknesses. If they are not good at dodging tackles with steps or swerves, or positioning to be in a gap before a passer dishes the ball out to them, or good at using the ball in a way to help the receiver, they won't try these things as often as they should.


We shouldn't blame Carter alone for the type of game the Tahs played; just some. The Tahs forwards didn't always go forward and there seemed to be a lack of alertness around the rucks that harked back to the 90's. Burgess' meerkat scoping from the base of rucks created several exciting moves, but when a snipe was not made, the meerkat delay used up time that rightly belonged to the 10 and 12. That meant space was stolen also as opponents did not wait until Burgess passed the ball and they were closer than they should have been when the 10 and 12 got it.


Halangahu did not launch the backline in the way I thought he would; for me 2010 was the year when he would step up, but he didn't. People have mentioned Barnes playing flat for Sydney Uni, and he did, but he was often too deep for the Tahs. Therefore players outside him had to recover a bit of real estate before they were in territory and momentum profit. I thought Barnes stood too far back because it was his nature as I had seen him play like that as the Reds 10, but maybe it wasn't all his fault because he saw his time would be too short playing flat - or maybe he has just changed recently. One thing for sure: his short, flat stint with Uni will have done him no harm.


Looking at that video clip makes me sad thinking of the current absence of Horne. He is quite a player with and without the ball isn't he? Perversely his absence has helped the Wallabies by forcing AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to move for most of the 2010 test year to 13 and Beale moving to 15 full-time, or at least permanent part-time. Serendipity.


PS – I know that my benign bagging of Carter should be offset by considering his defensive qualities. I would certainly pick him for a Brumbies type game. I know also that I have not criticised the coaching staff, or the recruitment of Cross. Life is too short to do all things.

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