Waratahs 2011

[Burke's Boot]

Please tell me the Rebels didn't give Cordingley a two year deal?

 

[rugby_man]

Hawko

D'Arcy is doing very well in the Shute Shield as he did last year. He's in the Tahs pro academy and I expected him to be elevated in 2011 for a rookie contract. The Force were interested in him a while back but he decided to stay in Sydney.

But I remembered some newspaper articles about Woodhouse that I had seen before and googled to jog my memory. They were from two local Sydney newspapers: one in the area around Scots, who he played for, and one in the area where he lives. It's fairly unusual for a boy to come straight from school into the professional academy as they usually have a year in the amateurs, but Woodhouse got a pro spot and so did Greg Peterson.

http://www.hawkesburygazette.com.au...in-sight-for-schoolboy-custodian/1748265.aspx

One usually takes advice from a local paper with a grain of salt; but unless he's going to have a 2nd year in the pro academy, he could get a rookie contract. He's the 2009 Oz Schools fullback and plays a bit like Matt Burke did, and has a bit of toe, but he's not a goal kicker as D'Arcy is. He got a bit of time for the JWs this year but not a lot. He's in the Sydney Uni factory so is earning his dues there before he plays in 1st grade.

Agree about Alcock and the need to have more players with a longer season, not fewer, but if there is a limit of 30 on Oz S15 teams, that's the way it is.

S15 teams get around constraints like that by having good players in their pro academy and they have to make sure that they have a scrummie, and prop and other key players in there to be available at short notice. The trick is to get good players to accept an pro academy job which is more or less at half pay compared to a Super contract salary. Keeping McKibbin for another year in the pro academy would be a very good trick.

James B

I wouldn't be surprised if that news about Roach is correct. As I wrote in the Grass Roots section: I saw him play for Newington last Saturday at Joeys. I thought he was pretty good last year when he got selected as Oz Schools hooker, but I didn't know that he still had another school year in 2010. On Saturday he looked like a young TPN, which is is not a bad thing. He has the mongrel and the mojo. The Joeys hooker is fairly handy too as are a couple of others I have seen in the trials. But digress.

The key point is whether Roach has a pro academy spot or is going to be in the amateur group, as most promising schoolboys from the year before are. For a lad leaving school the pro academy is the fast track and an announcement that the Tahs rate him.

As for other comments about different players and imperfect rostering: it is never ideal, but the Tahs have done well to keep so many of their players when some must have been courted by Melbourne.

Lee, would you mind explaining to me the difference betwee Tahs pro academy and the academy? Thanks in advance.

 

[Lee Grant]

It's a big difference and it's basically the same in the other franchises though they may call the pros "Tier 1".

The professionals are full timers and get paid, and the others don't. A few years ago some journo said that the pro academy guys get about half of what the basic contract amount was for a S14 player, before some get topped up by the ARU. And not to the point, if they have to play in the S14 because of injuries their contracts get switched to S14 contracts after they have played 3 games. At least that used to be the case; I haven't looked at the RUPA agreement for a while.

Academy players who aren't in the pro group are typically young blokes not too long out of school because older guys can't afford to do that. Sometimes ace schoolboys get to attend the amateur academy sessions also. But they are usually Colts and they get technical training for their position. They get added into the Junior Waratahs teams because the pros don't have enough to field a full team.

This is when the amateurs get their big chance to shine and be compared to others, and a few may get elevated to the pro academy group for the following year. But mostly they are replaced after a year, or at the most 2 unless they are students who have spare time; then they are watched to see how they progress as senior players when they get to grade.

Sometimes fellows like Justin Turner and Aidan Toua get a rookie contract in the S14 but they get injured and don't get much of a chance when the S14 is on. If they prove themselves in club rugby after that they can get back into the franchise in a pro academy spot. Then the powers that be can have another look at them before they commit to a second chance in Super rugby.

Often times the correct manning of the pro academy roster is just as important as the Super14 roster. You have to have a LHP, THP hooker and scrummie in the pro academy unless the squad is overstocked in one of those positions, and the other pro academy positions are geared according to the balance of the S14 squad.

Every now and then a pro academy spot is offered to a young fellow who hasn't proven himself in senior rugby yet, and he may just have left school, but the money earned in a pro academy spot keeps him with the franchise. Of course another Super franchise can always trump a pro academy spot offer to a young star with a rookie contract offer but that is rare.

It's the great game within the game.


Edit - PS Welcome to the forum, but there is no need to provide big quotes like that - Cheers.

 

[rugby_man]

Thanks for that Lee. I was on sportal but the forum there is full of idiots of that's what you want to call them. So I've come over here to see how it is.

So the pro academy blokes are on full time contracts am I correct? So does that mean they train with or are involved with the S14 squad for the entire season? I was just looking through the academy players and there aren't any players over 20 in the academy. Does this make the academy basically an Under 20's academy? Sorry for asking so many questions. Just find it a bit wierd having 2 separate academies at the same club.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yep the pro academy players train with the S14 players and some of the opposed sessions are interesting. They have to be ready in case the main squad gets 2 injuries or sometimes even 1.

Most of the amateur players are eligible for U/20s; as I said older blokes can't afford not to be paid, but it's not limited to that age. I remember 2 years ago Ofa Fainga'anuku and Ed Jenkins were both in the amateur academy yet older than U/20, in fact Ofa was a lot older. Both are in the pro academy now.

The times I've watched the amateurs train they were being coached separately and not by the main Tahs coaches but sometimes you see them involved with the pros especially carrying the tackle bags, but soaking up the info.

 

[chief]

Hugh Roache would certainly be worth the money for an Academy player. What a great hooker he is, I rate him extremely highly as a player too. Has he signed?

 

[topo]

Lee, as usual you are correct about most things with the Tahs academy. The money for pro academy, though, is pretty ordinary. Usually around $10,000-$15,000 for the year whereas a rookie contract is usually $55,000 and minimum full contract is $65,000 with bonuses for matches. Not all the pro academy guys train with the full squad. They tend to narrow down the squad as the season progresses. Once the season is in full swing and they work out who are the genuine contenders for the current year they usually only have about 5 of the pro academy training with the top squad. The rest are either training with junior tahs or shute shield teams. The amateur academy guys train separately at the start, but then some of them play junior tahs and will train with that squad and some don't. It's all a bit complex really and sometimes the players themselves find it hard to work out what's going on.

 

[whocares]

I'd like to see Tim Bennets in the mix there somewhere. I know he's on a pro academy contract and from memory i think he was on the bench sometime during thie season or in the SA tour squad but didnt get any game time(I could be wrong though). I'm not sure where you'd stick him having a look at that list put together before but he's definatly got a lot of talent and its a shame about his hammy (?) during the U20's. I could see him as an alternative to Tom Carter..... Horne and Bennets centre pairing could be pretty destructive.

 

[DPK]

I agree Tom, and I reckon it could be in the pipes. Horne's young but Bennetts is even younger, so it may well happen in a few years time.

 

[Lee Grant]

topo

Thanks for that. Geez, so much for getting half of what the S14 players get and I thought the standard contract was much more than $65K anyway. How much are match payments, do you know? I hope I remember these things next time as I have spouted those wrong details a few times.

No wonder we lose pro academy guys overseas.

And is it still the case that if they play 3 matches they have to be upgraded to rookie contract status during the season - and what about if they play only 5 minutes in each of 3 games?

Tom

Don't get carried away with Bennetts just yet. He did well for Eastwood in 2009, his 1st year out of school, and is going to be a S14 player one day I think, but he didn't look too flash for the JWs in those games earlier in the year, which is neither here nor there at this stage.

You can't compare him to Horne at the same age, but it's early days. When he is fit to play again the guys with the clipboards will be watching his performances for Eastwood very closely and the same for Cam Mitchell if he stays healthy for a while. Good young midfielders are not falling off trees. It's a key year for these lads.


No, Bennetts didn't play in the S14 this year. Perhaps you were thinking of Rory Sidey.

 

[whocares]

Perhaps i was just hoping he went along for the ride.

You make a good point though his form has had a slight blip but early days yet, and i know all about Cam Mitchell. Solid all through schoolboys and sored a pretty solid try against Tonga the otherday he has a big future too (although he's the biggest cheat when it comes to table tennis).

I just think we need another person at 12 for the tahs.... someone who passes

 

[topo]

topo

Thanks for that. Geez, so much for getting half of what the S14 players get and I thought the standard contract was much more than $65K anyway. How much are match payments, do you know? I hope I remember these things next time as I have spouted those wrong details a few times.

No wonder we lose pro academy guys overseas.

And is it still the case that if they play 3 matches they have to be upgraded to rookie contract status during the season - and what about if they play only 5 minutes in each of 3 games?

Match payments are $2000/game. Standard pro academy contract says that you get upgraded to full contract if you are named in match day 22 3 times (eg Kane Douglas and Pat McCutcheon).

 

[rugby_man]

I like what I see in Tim Bennetts. He very rarely has a bad game and seems to play well above his weight. A few years back, I watched a schoolboy rep game involving CHS v GPS and the centre pairings were Rob Horne and Tim Bennetts up against Afusipa Taumoepeau and Cameron Mitchell. It was a great match-up and from what I can recall, both pairings were very, very good but Horne and Bennetts worked very well together and probably outplayed the other 2 IMO. I wouldn't mind seeing them play in the centres for the Tahs. There was another kid on the wing who was outstanding, scored a couple of tries I think but his name has slipped my mind. Damien Fitzpatrick, Lachlan McCaffrey and Steven Mafi were also a part of that game IIRC.

 

[#1 Tah]

Tell you what, if burgo plays every game like he did last night, we are serious title contenders.

Also keep in mind that supercoach wants to use the rotation policy next year, which is a great idea because it will build depth well and fringe players like sidey, BKH and Mcaffery can get a run.

 

[Lee Grant]

topo

Thanks again - so just named - you don't have to get on the park? Another bad assumption on my part.

I like what I see in Tim Bennetts. He very rarely has a bad game and seems to play well above his weight. A few years back, I watched a schoolboy rep game involving CHS v GPS and the centre pairings were Rob Horne and Tim Bennetts up against Afusipa Taumoepeau and Cameron Mitchell. It was a great match-up and from what I can recall, both pairings were very, very good but Horne and Bennetts worked very well together and probably outplayed the other 2 IMO. .

Yeah - I was at that game 3 years ago. On my programme I've got these notes about the 4 centres that day but hardly any on anybody else. Mitchell got the 13 jersey for NSW Schools and Horne played 12 and bloody well too. Bennetts and Sipa got picked on the wing to put them into the side but Bennetts injured his back.

That was the year of the centres because Queensland had Ben Tapuai and JOC (James O'Connor). For Oz Schools it was 12. Tapuai and 13. Horne with JOC (James O'Connor) and Mitchell on the bench. Mitchell returned to school in 2008 and was Oz Schools captain but Bennetts missed the schools tournament. They put him in Oz A Schools anyway.

There's some good centres in schools rugby this year too. Watch this space.

 

[the gambler]

Staniforth or Cross hey?? Didnt see that one coming. I would go for Staniforth on a one year deal.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...e-between-cross-staniforth-20100621-yscj.html

 

[Langthorne]

How can he possibly say Anesi is still an option?

I'd be happy with Cross or Staniforth. Can Staniforth play 12 too? If he can I'd go with him, if not Cross.

 

[fatprop]

What the hell is happening to the Force? Their coach is in SA "consulting" and their key experienced players are abandoning ship

 

[topo]

What the hell is happening to the Force? Their coach is in SA "consulting" and their key experienced players are abandoning ship

You're not going to keep/sign too many players when they don't know who the coaching staff are going to be.

 

[waratahjesus]

Ryan Cross has Rob Horne in sights

RYAN Cross has set his sights on toppling incumbent Test centre Rob Horne at both state and Wallabies level after signing on to come home and play for the Waratahs next year.

The eight-Test Wallabies centre will return to the SFS - where he played nine seasons as a Roosters star - on a one-year deal, leaving the Western Force after four years in Perth.

Cross, who missed Australian selection for the June Tests, is determined to win back a spot in the Wallabies squad for next year's World Cup and believes a NSW homecoming can bring out his best form. The first hurdle will be displacing Horne at NSW, the current Test No.13.

"Being at the Force wasn't putting any pressure on me," Cross said last night. "The move to a strong set-up will be good for me. Rob is in the Test team at the moment so that's a big challenge but one I am ready to take on."

Cross, 30, said he'd been contemplating a move from mid-way through the Super 14 season but only began talking with NSW last week. An offer was put forward and the deal was finalised yesterday.

"Hopefully I can start enjoying it more playing finals rugby for a strong side like the Waratahs," Cross said.

Cross played inside centre for the Force this year - and the Wallabies - and is being looked at by NSW as a utility who can play both centre spots and wing.

Waratahs coach Chris Hickey said he'd spelt out the strength of the NSW backline to Cross and was impressed he was willing to fight for a spot.

"He was prepared to back himself, which is always a good sign," Hickey said.

In other news, Australian rugby officials have poured cold water on a proposal to play an IPL-style rugby tournament in South Africa from 2012 onwards.

Reports of the idea, which is pushed by former Springbok turned coach Rassie Eramus, surfaced yesterday and would see a three-week competition in January featuring the "200 best players in the world". Games would reportedly be 40-minutes long and have amended rules to limit kicking and be more exciting.

Australia were among those named as possible stars in eight privately owned franchises but it appears the promoter's chances of getting co-operation from the ARU - and likely the NZRU and SARU - is almost nil.

An ARU spokesman said yesterday that "contractual commitments to broadcasters and sponsors" to participate in Super 15 took precedence and that no player could be approached while under an ARU or state contract.

Organisers want players to negotiate a window in new contracts but it would seem unlikely any teams would let their stars play just weeks out from the tournament.

Northern stars would be in the middle of their seasons.

"To be honest, I couldn't see us sending any players over there," NSW coach Chris Hickey said.