Wallaby Watch 2014

[Train Without a Station]

No it's not at all. It's all based on basic principles of identifying weaknesses and knowing where to attack.

Any player could stand at fly half, call the moves and run the plays. Generally most are good enough passers of the ball.

Anybody can jump in the line out, most forwards will be a good enough jumper.

Under pressure identifying where the defence is weakest and choosing the best way to exploit it is the difference the two.

To discount the ability to be a genuine line out specialist as something anybody can do is extremely naïve, foolish and narrow minded. Anybody can do it, but some can do it better. They are the ones that ensure you seldom lose throws (beyond human error by the thrower, lifter, or other jumper) and get one or two of the other teams throws.

If it can be taught then why do teams have weak line outs? Because some players are just better at it.

If we could get an openside flanker to get one or two pilfers/forced penalties a game, every game he would be considered the stand out option at 7. If he can slow down/mess up the opposition ball this would strengthen his case even further.

If a line out specialist has the ability to win one or two of the opposition balls a game, whilst disrupt the ones they do win, and force them to only throw to the front why is it not considered as valuable?

 

[Dave Beat]

Saying you can teach anybody to run the line out is like saying you can teach anybody to prop, or play fly half. You can teach the principles but some people have the better natural ability and instincts for it and adapt better. That's the difference between somebody who is good at it, and somebody who is just doing it.

Same as the best player maybe the worst captain.
Great player doesn't always make a great coach.

 

[Highlander35]

There are 4 reasons to play a player somewhere other than their preferred position.

1. They are a genuine Dual position player/utility.

2. They are such a good player that they need to be in the side regardless of where it is.

3. The combinations generated by the move are superior to any others that could be constructed using players in their preferred position.

4. Injury has forced you to utilize the player outside the position.

More often than not, its combinations of these reasons rather than one or another.


Jones to 8 fulfills none of these criteria. He's not played 8 at the professional level. As good as he is, he's not a must select. Jones, Fardy & Hooper is not necessarily a better combo than with McCalman, or Palu or even Higgers. And all 3 of them are fit, so injury is out. I'd like to see:

1. Slipper
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Simmons
5. Carter
6. Fardy
7. Hooper
8. McCalman
9. White
10. To'omua
11. Cummins
12. Lilo/Godwin
13. Kuridrani
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Folau
16. TPN
17. Sio
18. Longbottom
19. Jones
20. Palu/Higginbotham/Hodgeson
21. Genia
22. Cooper
23. McCabe

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[fatprop]

Saying you can teach anybody to run the line out is like saying you can teach anybody to prop, or play fly half. You can teach the principles but some people have the better natural ability and instincts for it and adapt better. That's the difference between somebody who is good at it, and somebody who is just doing it.

Whilst natural ability is a wonderful head start, effort, attitude and form usually beats it over 80 minutes.

In the end a player has to deserve their place first

 

[Brumby Runner]

I like it how the conversation has still come back to there being too many Waratahs in the Wallabies team (2 years ago)!

Not meaning to rake over old coals BH. Just wanting to illustrate a point that now there are some Reds fans calling for 4 or 5 of their out of form players to be included when not so long ago they were very vocal in their criticism of the Tahs players being selected. A bit inconsistent IMO.

 

[Dave Beat]

1. Slipper
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Simmons
5. Carter
6. Fardy
7. Hooper
8. McCalman
9. White
10. To'omua
11. Cummins
12. Lilo/Godwin
13. Kuridrani
14. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. Folau
16. TPN
17. Sio
18. Longbottom
19. Jones
20. Palu/Higginbotham/Hodgeson
21. Genia
22. Cooper
23. McCabe

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In my eyes Jones has performed marginally better than Carter so I'd swap those 2 around.
Then I'd look at Carter V Skelton - come RWC time I think Skelton could bring allot more than Carter. Carter is ahead of him now yes, but I'm looking ahead and also this is a bench position were you want impact in the last 20.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Jones and Skelton are the two most likely uncapped locks to be selected this year.

Jones edges Carter and Skelton provides something completely different.

 

[No4918]

I don't agree with the people putting Lilo/Godwin at 12 ahead of To'omua. Neither have been great this year and Lilo was not particularly good in his Aus appearances so far. The Cooper/To'omua combo looked excellent last year, the best a 10/12 have looked in many years for the Wallabies.

Slipper
Moore
Alexander
Simmons
Jones
Fardy
Hooper (c)
Palu
White
Cooper
Cummins
To'omua
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
Tomane
Folau

TPN
Kepu
Sio
Horwill/Carter/Skelton
McCalman
Genia
McCabe
Beale

 

[Lindommer]

Are the Super players not selected for the squad to play France going to play club rugby?

 

[Pete King]

prepared to agree to disagree Train. Fundamentally the point im trying to make is that I believe Jones could run the lineout for the wallabies if Simmons and Horwill's form is not deserving. Be far keener for him to do it first vs france rather then the all blacks.

You seem to think that the task of this is to great for Jones, fair enough.

 

[Pete King]

god help us if simmons gets injuried or suspended

 

[Tomikin]

I think Jones and Skelton are the two most likely uncapped locks to be selected this year.

Jones edges Carter and Skelton provides something completely different.

Getting Falconed off his own line out ?

 

[Braveheart81]

prepared to agree to disagree Train. Fundamentally the point im trying to make is that I believe Jones could run the lineout for the wallabies if Simmons and Horwill's form is not deserving. Be far keener for him to do it first vs france rather then the all blacks.

You seem to think that the task of this is to great for Jones, fair enough.

I think you're confusing people's thoughts of what is likely to happen with what they want to happen.

People aren't saying that the job is too difficult for Jones to master but they're saying that Simmons has experience with it at Wallaby level and is likely to get the job to start the test season particularly given how short the leadup time is to the first test of the season.

I think there is a pretty clear sentiment that no one wants selection decisions to be influenced by issues other than form however calling the lineout is just as much a specialist job as goal kicking and it will come into the selection equation. Just as Quade Cooper's selection chances are increased by the fact that if he isn't selected then To'omua at 10 is likely to leave us without a specialist goalkicker, Simmons selection chances are improved because he is good at calling the lineout and has experience with the Wallaby lineout.

 

[Braveheart81]

Getting Falconed off his own line out ?

I imagine this one mention in this thread will be more attention than that incident receives at the selection table.

 

[Tomikin]

I imagine this one mention in this thread will be more attention than that incident receives at the selection table.

Indeed, it was funny though

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[Scoey]

god help us if simmons gets injuried or suspended

Running a lineout is a skill. It's something that is learned of course and it's something that players get better with over time if they feel that it is a skill they want to put the time into and develop. They don't learn it simply by spending time playing in the forwards.
I don't think it's beyond the capabilities of Jones or a lot of other players to learn but conversely it's not something that they will be able to pick up in a Wallaby training camp and I would even suggest it will take them a season or two to become even an average runner of a lineout.
The second point related to this train of discussion is just how important a strong lineout is to the success of a team. One of the most overlooked but fundamental requirements for a consistently good team is a strong lineout. Check the history books if you don't believe me.
I really don't mean to sound disingenuous but I would like to know if those arguing against picking a lineout specialist have ever played in the forwards or better yet, tried to call a lineout?
It's a really big deal and one that should never be overlooked.


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[Train Without a Station]

I guess I'm just trying to say to exclude line out form from a locks form is overlooking a 3rd of their job. The Reds line out has been pretty good and at times the scrum quite good (poor form has been limited to the same props so they appear to be the weakness at least) so the locks must be doing 2/3 of their job right at the reds. To say that Horwill and Simmons are in poor form is incorrect. They may not meet you're high expectations, but as locks which is funnily enough where they will be selected, 2/3 or their job they are doing well.

You have to look at balance too. I'm a huge fan of Jones. If the guy isn't in the squad and isn't capped this year it would be a huge injustice. I couldn';t figure out why the Rebels didn't start him last year to be honest.

With Higgers at 8 he works well. If Palu or McCalman play 8 we will have 2 players who do the same role. Is able to offer the same value to the side when his great tight running game is replaced by hitting rucks because somebody else is already doing that job?

 

[Dumbledore]

He was benched last year because Damien Hill was a goose, albeit a goose who knew how to get a team scoring points. When he was on the ground almost all he did was hit rucks and make tackles, with a few carries to mix things up. Funnily enough, he's playing much looser this year and he's suddenly getting noticed. Making around twice as many carries a game as he did last year and almost half as many tackles. Of course, the tackle numbers have probably decreased due to the functional team defence - he's not having to make an extra 5-10 cover tackles a game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'd love to see the Rebels give him a bit of time at 8 too. Would be good to see if he is really able to fill the role that Kimlin did for the Brumbies, albeit as a slightly stronger ball runner and not quite as strong in the line out. Having a player who could cover lock, 6 and 8 and do it well would be invaluable in the team. Would make it a lot easier to carry a second 7 on the bench if him and Fardy were in the 23.

 

[Bowside]

I'm all for fresh blood in the locks. Horwill isn't what he was, and Simmons doesn't have the rugby brain to play test football successfully.

We can paper over the cracks and then get taken apart by the All Blacks and Springboks in a few months, or fix the problem now and let the blokes get a few games under their belts before the Rugby Championship.