Wallaby Watch 2014

[Bairdy]

With the Wallabies, To'omua is played at 12 but is essentially a second five-eighth in Link's gameplan. He just has the added benefit of being strong in contact like a 'natural' inside centre.

 

[Train Without a Station]

While I agree Toomoua is both of those things, both of them play a direct uncomplicated style ball in hand, and both are very good defenders. Both were played at inside centre early in their int'l career. Toomoua is a lot closer to DC's style of play at flyhalf than he is to Beale or Cooper. And I'd have Toomoua at 10 over Beale, Cooper or Foley.

He has the gift of looking like he always has time and that is, I feel, a crucial trait of a good flyhalf.

So yeah, I can compare them alright.

Yeah not really. Nobody ever really considered Carter to be a better 12 than 10 like many do with To'omua.

Tell me about how much time To'omua looks like he has after a few more games like last weekends where the brumbies struggle a bit.

 

[Pete King]

It's amazing how often the conversation comes back to playing people out of position and Robbie Deans.

Are any of the coaches really that different?

Slipper has played both sides of the scrum this year so selecting him at LHP isn't really out of position, but it's arguable which side is his correct position.

Fardy has played lock most of the season and will probably be selected at 6.

Beale has played 12 all season and will probably be selected at 10.

To'omua has played 10 all season and will probably be selected at 12.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has played 13 all season and there is a strong chance he'll be selected at 14. If he isn't, Rob Horne, who was completely out of position on the wing two months ago is a good shot to be selected there.

I think it shows that a lot of players are very versatile and can excel in multiple positions. What is best for the Super Rugby team might not be best for the test team. What might be perceived as a dumb selection because they are 'out of position' could just be a perception of what people are used to, rather than what might work best either immediately because of other player availability or in the long term because ideally you want a player playing for the Wallabies in a certain position.

Completely agree with this post. Think though that players such as JOC (James O'Connor) and to a lesser degree KB (Kurtley Beale) moving from the outside backs to chief play maker is a step to far and beyond their versatility. Think this is the major go to point for Deans for mine. JOC (James O'Connor) and KB (Kurtley Beale) are wonderfully talented players who generally instinctually create opportunities for themselves or beat a player with footwork. There are far better players to control game and create space for others (those others being the KB (Kurtley Beale) AND JOC (James O'Connor) TYPES) This is why I would pick foley over beale.

 

[USARugger]

JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 for the Lions was one of the most overtly ridiculous and poor selections I can remember since I started following rugby as a sport.

Can we just not talk about it, please?

 

[KOB1987]

^^^ omit 'one of' ..

 

[Braveheart81]

Completely agree with this post. Think though that players such as JOC (James O'Connor) and to a lesser degree KB (Kurtley Beale) moving from the outside backs to chief play maker is a step to far and beyond their versatility. Think this is the major go to point for Deans for mine. JOC (James O'Connor) and KB (Kurtley Beale) are wonderfully talented players who generally instinctually create opportunities for themselves or beat a player with footwork. There are far better players to control game and create space for others (those others being the KB (Kurtley Beale) AND JOC (James O'Connor) TYPES) This is why I would pick foley over beale.

JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 for the Lions was one of the most overtly ridiculous and poor selections I can remember since I started following rugby as a sport.

Can we just not talk about it, please?

I still think Deans would have picked Beale at 10 for the Lions tour if he hadn't had all his issues early last season.

Link is poised to pick Beale as his 10 with Cooper injured.

I agree that JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 was a crazy decision, but I can also understand Deans deciding that Cooper wasn't going to be the man he backed when his job was on the line.

 

[Viking]

While I agree To'omua is both of those things, both of them play a direct uncomplicated style ball in hand, and both are very good defenders. Both were played at inside centre early in their int'l career. Toomoua is a lot closer to DC's style of play at flyhalf than he is to Beale or Cooper. And I'd have To'omua at 10 over Beale, Cooper or Foley.

He has the gift of looking like he always has time and that is, I feel, a crucial trait of a good flyhalf.

So yeah, I can compare them alright.

They both has all round games but Carter is more of an attacking fly-half and To'omua is much more of a defensive one. Carter has a decent step and running game. To'omua's attack is much more one dimensional. Both are good defenders but Carter is far from aggressive, whereas To'omua puts on big hit nearly every game.

Cooper debuted at 12 too? Does that make him similar too?

 

[ChargerWA]

Concerning to hear that Ben Alexander has a neck injury that is going to have to be managed.

Who would have guessed two years ago Ben's inclusion in the Wallabies would be close to a dead cert and most people would be happy with that. He has matured brilliantly. Well done that man.

 

[Braveheart81]

This should definitely be the case for the most technical positions, like tight head prop. It's a joke how long Ben Alexander spent playing loose head for the Brumbies. He should be years further along in his development in a position where Australia are almost always weak.

Almost everyone is a better loose head early in their career, because its easier and less technical. It takes years to learn how to scrummage against two main points of contact instead of one.

It seems difficult to balance these two issues though.

If Alexander had been transitioned to THP earlier in his career he probably wouldn't have got nearly as much Super Rugby experience.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Ben Mac out of the force game tomorrow with a groin injury not sure how bad it is but may make it Easier to pick an 8.

If he is out for the tests Cottrell to come in for mine.

 

[Pete King]

Whats exciting to me is of the possible back three combinations, all fours first instinct is to keep ball in hand. My preference is for Folau with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Cummins as his wingers but wouldnt be unhappy with Horne, Cummins wing with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at13 or even Horne, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (unlikely) on the wing

 

[Viking]

Concerning to hear that Ben Alexander has a neck injury that is going to have to be managed.

Who would have guessed two years ago Ben's inclusion in the Wallabies would be close to a dead cert and most people would be happy with that. He has matured brilliantly. Well done that man.

Agreed, 2 years ago I always thought he was a weak-link in the pack. I would cringe at every scrum he took. He's always been good around the park and now he has greatly benefited from the new engagement laws. Scrum no longer an issue.

 

[gone]

Yeah not really. Nobody ever really considered Carter to be a better 12 than 10 like many do with To'omua.

Not entirely true. When the All Blacks went to the Northern hemisphere at the end of 2004 without Mehrtens and Spencer, there was a big debate around play 10 - Carter or Aaron Mauger.

The consensus view was Mauger would play 10 and Carter at 12. They had played that way for the Crusaders that year under Deans and for the Canterbury npc side under Aussie McClean. Wayne Smith wanted to play them that way around as there was concern that Carter couldn't control a game and Mauger was the "backline general". Graham Henry overruled him and the rest is history.

But that is probably off topic.

I'd stick To'omua at 10 as in my opinion he's the best 10 even with Cooper fit. It won't happen.

 

[USARugger]

I still think Deans would have picked Beale at 10 for the Lions tour if he hadn't had all his issues early last season.

Link is poised to pick Beale as his 10 with Cooper injured.

I agree that JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 was a crazy decision, but I can also understand Deans deciding that Cooper wasn't going to be the man he backed when his job was on the line.

It was definitely not a situation I would want to be in.

Risk it with Cooper (who despises you), throw test virgin To'omua in (I wish he had done this, to be frank - even if he went full on pass-first like he did in his early tests he at least would have been in position) or play JOC (James O'Connor) who had a litany of poor performances at 10 for the Rebels.

The thought the he could turn JOC (James O'Connor) into a 10 that would beat the Lions was the final indictment of Deans' incompetence in his final years as Wallaby head coach, in my opinion.

Should have gambled on To'omua, it would have been far better for his career as well.

 

[USARugger]

Not entirely true. When the All Blacks went to the Northern hemisphere at the end of 2004 without Mehrtens and Spencer, there was a big debate around play 10 - Carter or Aaron Mauger.

The consensus view was Mauger would play 10 and Carter at 12. They had played that way for the Crusaders that year under Deans and for the Canterbury npc side under Aussie McClean. Wayne Smith wanted to play them that way around as there was concern that Carter couldn't control a game and Mauger was the "backline general". Graham Henry overruled him and the rest is history.

But that is probably off topic.

I'd stick To'omua at 10 as in my opinion he's the best 10 even with Cooper fit. It won't happen.

None of those things indicate Carter was played at 12 because he was a better option at 12 than at 10.

Every one if them has to do with Mauger getting the nod over him at 10.

The case with To'omua at 12 is that in his tests there up north he provided a distinct and consistent spark on both sides of the ball that he did not provide at all during his tests at 10 and only showed in flashes at 10 during Super Rugby.

 

[gone]

None of those things indicate Carter was played at 12 because he was a better option at 12 than at 10.

The concern that he couldn't control a game probably does...

 

[Slim 293]

The case with To'omua at 12 is that in his tests there up north he provided a distinct and consistent spark on both sides of the ball that he did not provide at all during his tests at 10 and only showed in flashes at 10 during Super Rugby.

To be fair, To'omua has only played 2 tests at 10........ his first 2 tests.......... against the All Blacks........

And he was pretty decent in that second match...........

 

[USARugger]

The concern that he couldn't control a game probably does.

So not being ready to play 10 is now selection criteria for picking a 12? He was a very good player who had another very good player keeping him at second-five.

To'omua is potentially better at 12 for the Wallabies than he would be at 10. They are two very different situations.

To be fair, To'omua has only played 2 tests at 10.... his first 2 tests.... against the All Blacks....

And he was pretty decent in that second match.....

Agreed. He was excellent on the EOYT though.

 

[gone]

Your circular logic has me confused. I have no idea what your original or any of your subsequent points are.

I would play To'omua at 10. To me his super rugby form in that position has been much better this year than last and whilst he did play well at 12 last year and I can see why Mackenzie wants to continue that development, he has been a 10 for a very long period of time. This year he has been quite clearly the best 10 in Australia on form and that is something I would not have said in previous years.

He is a very different player to Dan Carter who despite some views on this website was originally picked for Canterbury, the Crusaders and the All Blacks as a 12. In some peoples view including many prominent coaches he was seen as a long term solution at 12.


Starting Dan Carter at 10 for the All Blacks in 2004 was a much bigger risk than starting To'omua at 10 for the Wallabies in 2014.

 

[Slim 293]

To'omua never really got the opportunity to prove himself as a flyhalf at test level though.........

He was very reserved in his debut against the world's best team, and there was significant improvement in his second match (against the same team).......... and then he was dropped............

And then there was no immediate improvement from Cooper following that, who took a number of games before he started to get good and much of that coincided with having To'omua alongside him..........

The problem the Wallabies have right now is that To'omua is not only the best flyhalf option, but he's also the best inside centre we have..........

I would be picking him at flyhalf, but Link is set on having two playmakers at 10/12 which narrows down his options..........