Wallabies Watch

[Ash]

Rugby Stats had Cooper attempting 12, making 7 (58%), ineffective2 (17%) and missing 3 (25%)

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match21312.html

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ineffective refers to how many of the 7 were ineffective, not otherwise. So according to those stats, Cooper made 70% of tackles, 2 of the 7 made were ineffective.

I can remember two missed tackles from Cooper, but no idea on the third. FoxSports had Cooper at 7 tackles completed, 2 missed (78%), which is OK for a flyhalf in an open Super Rugby game, but not great, and not bad. A huge improvement on previous years. Would like to know what RuckinGoodStats had Cooper at, if anyone knows.

Another article from Harris has tackle completion rates for JOC (James O'Connor) at 89% and for Cooper at 83% for this year so far. 83% is not a turnstile, and is a lot better than some of the people here are implying about Cooper's defence.

Harris also had Cooper's at 29 turn overs, and JOC (James O'Connor) at 17 turnovers with JOC (James O'Connor) playing playing about 140 minutes of rugby less than Cooper, so you could add 6 or more turnovers to JOC (James O'Connor) in comarison.

The difference between JOC (James O'Connor) and Cooper this year is not nearly as big as people are implying. I would say that Cooper's error rate is down and tackle completion is up on previous years. There's still some improvement to go, sure, but Cooper is not the speed bump that was seemingly afraid of tackling that he once was.

 

[fatprop]

It was

12 tackles attempted

7 made
2 ineffective
5 missed
12

I like their stats, they are a pretty good

 

[Ash]

That surprises me; I struggle to remember Cooper missing 5 tackles. I struggle to think that Cooper would have been involved in 12 tackles, but my memory is not the greatest for small stuff like that.

fatprop did you watch the Reds vs Cheetahs game, and do you have an opinion how Cooper went on defence in that game?

Although, I can see how Cooper easily ratchets up the missed / ineffective tackle counts, especially on some stats due to the subjective nature of it. Cooper has a habit of going in high when there are other people involved, and letting go early and trying to rejoin the defensive line. I don't think it's a good habit, I'd rather see him complete the tackle rather than dropping off early. Completing the tackle means you can slow down the opposition ball, falling off early is risky it allows a quick recycle, or offload, or break if the other tackles fall off.

 

[fatprop]

That surprises me; I struggle to remember Cooper missing 5 tackles. I struggle to think that Cooper would have been involved in 12 tackles, but my memory is not the greatest for small stuff like that.

fatprop did you watch the Reds vs Cheetahs game, and do you have an opinion how Cooper went on defence in that game?

Although, I can see how Cooper easily ratchets up the missed / ineffective tackle counts, especially on some stats due to the subjective nature of it. Cooper has a habit of going in high when there are other people involved, and letting go early and trying to rejoin the defensive line. I don't think it's a good habit, I'd rather see him complete the tackle rather than dropping off early. Completing the tackle means you can slow down the opposition ball, falling off early is risky it allows a quick recycle, or offload, or break if the other tackles fall off.

Cooper's tackling?

In the line he is a 'grabber' he just doesn't bend his back and get into it
His high grabs are NRL style holds and wait for your mates stuff

It really frustrates me to see his grabs compared to JOC (James O'Connor)'s real tackle attempts, 10s miss tackles sure, but I want to see the attitude change that Cooper will end up at the bottom of the ruck as he puts in and bleeds for his team . (in attack as well - those lollypop flop passes as well have to go)





Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[lewisr]

Does anyone know where Bret Harris got his information from? Looking through those rugby stats, it seems as though Cooper has attempted more tackles than O'Connor (But probably at a lower success rate than is being suggested in the article).

This would make sense considering he's had more game time and it is not as though O'Connor has played the entire season at 10. (Braces for accusations of "Quade just doesn't tackle!"). In all seriousness though, take a look for yourself.

I am not saying they are necessarily wrong but would like to know his sources so we can compare. If someone wants to count up the stats off of "rugbystats.com.au" go for it but I was just going off the fact that it appears cooper averages either the same or more attempted tackles each week.

In saying all this. 83% compared to 89% hardly warrants criticism... That is getting seriously detailed. Errors are also included in the game time issue. Maybe Quade should just play less rugby and then he'll make fewer mistakes!

I do want to point out one of the notable issues that results in his turnovers though. He is topping the offload chart at a whopping 41 compared to Folau in second at 29... There seems to be a real problem with that. I think its fair to say that he is taking the ball into contact a lot more so maybe it was earlier in the season? I don't believe that offloads are necessarily a bad thing as they will often create space and opportunities if executed well. But 41 seems excessive...

^This is the real issue, not his defence.

 

[Ash]

Cooper's tackling?

In the line he is a 'grabber' he just doesn't bend his back and get into it
His high grabs are NRL style holds and wait for your mates stuff

It really frustrates me to see his grabs compared to JOC (James O'Connor)'s real tackle attempts, 10s miss tackles sure, but I want to see the attitude change that Cooper will end up at the bottom of the ruck as he puts in and bleeds for his team . (in attack as well - those lollypop flop passes as well have to go)

Did you actually watch the game vs the Cheetahs though? In the second half Cooper had some OK cover tackles on Strauss and a prop. They were not in the line, though. That being said, those cover tackles are ones that Cooper would have missed two years ago. Both of those cover tackles Cooper released too early, too, BTW, although in both situations the player offloaded.

In the line vs the Cheetahs he seemed a mixed bag to me; Cooper seems to be increasing the number of tackles where he commits and doesn't just grab, but he still needs to improve more. The grabbing is quite obviously a habit, as Cooper is not afraid of putting his shoulder in - he's done it on quite a few occasions this year now.

Still, Cooper's tackling is a lot better than it was last year, and light years ahead of 2 years ago, and it's improving.

I will say this: there's been a LOT of comment on Cooper's tackling this year, and a lot of it has been from people who haven't been watching him make his tackles. I wouldn't be surprised if the missed tackle rate for Genia is actually similar to Cooper this year; Genia has been average on defence in a number of games, but it's barely warranted a mention.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Maybe Quade should just play less rugby and then he'll make fewer mistakes!

good idea - and if Deans was any sort of coach when explaining what he wanted to see from QC (Quade Cooper) he would have said "less game time so he commits fewer mistakes".

 

[fatprop]

Did you actually watch the game vs the Cheetahs though? In the second half Cooper had some OK cover tackles on Strauss and a prop. They were not in the line, though. That being said, those cover tackles are ones that Cooper would have missed two years ago. Both of those cover tackles Cooper released too early, too, BTW, although in both situations the player offloaded.

In the line vs the Cheetahs he seemed a mixed bag to me; Cooper seems to be increasing the number of tackles where he commits and doesn't just grab, but he still needs to improve more. The grabbing is quite obviously a habit, as Cooper is not afraid of putting his shoulder in - he's done it on quite a few occasions this year now.

Still, Cooper's tackling is a lot better than it was last year, and light years ahead of 2 years ago, and it's improving.

I will say this: there's been a LOT of comment on Cooper's tackling this year, and a lot of it has been from people who haven't been watching him make his tackles. I wouldn't be surprised if the missed tackle rate for Genia is actually similar to Cooper this year; Genia has been average on defence in a number of games, but it's barely warranted a mention.

Yeah, watched the game, yes his cover tackles were OK, although that first miss was just diabolical

As for the "lots of comment on Cooper's tackling this year" I think most of us want the see the guy succeed, he is a fantastic talent, I personally want to see his attitude improve about defence.

It is lovely to see the guy want to be available for that next counter opportunity, but sometimes he has to accept that he will be at the bottom of the ruck because he made that important tackle and that is just as important.

It is the same meme in attack, sometimes he just has to take the tackle, get smashed and work for quick ball so someone else gets the opportunity.

 

[RoffsChoice]

Everyone on here wants Quade to develop into a Carlos Spencer cross Stephen Larkham who can match Dan Carter at his best, but they're split 90/10 on whether or not he should be doing that at test level.

 

[Scotty]

That surprises me; I struggle to remember Cooper missing 5 tackles. I struggle to think that Cooper would have been involved in 12 tackles, but my memory is not the greatest for small stuff like that.

fatprop did you watch the Reds vs Cheetahs game, and do you have an opinion how Cooper went on defence in that game?

Although, I can see how Cooper easily ratchets up the missed / ineffective tackle counts, especially on some stats due to the subjective nature of it. Cooper has a habit of going in high when there are other people involved, and letting go early and trying to rejoin the defensive line. I don't think it's a good habit, I'd rather see him complete the tackle rather than dropping off early. Completing the tackle means you can slow down the opposition ball, falling off early is risky it allows a quick recycle, or offload, or break if the other tackles fall off.

When your defensive line is struggling it isn't a bad tactic to get back in there and help them out, particularly when you don't have much practise at ruck work.

Gregan used to do it all the time.

 

[Athilnaur]

Does anyone know where Bret Harris got his information from? Looking through those rugby stats, it seems as though Cooper has attempted more tackles than O'Connor (But probably at a lower success rate than is being suggested in the article).
...
I do want to point out one of the notable issues that results in his turnovers though. He is topping the offload chart at a whopping 41 compared to Folau in second at 29. There seems to be a real problem with that. I think its fair to say that he is taking the ball into contact a lot more so maybe it was earlier in the season? I don't believe that offloads are necessarily a bad thing as they will often create space and opportunities if executed well. But 41 seems excessive.

^This is the real issue, not his defence.

Quade 51 tackles, 19 missed, 31 turnovers, 45 metres run per 80 mins played, 31 offloads,
JOC (James O'Connor) 46 tackles, 4 missed, 10 turnovers 69 metres per 80 mins played, 14 offloads.

Even on try assists, can't recall tries but pretty sure Quade has more, the main try scorers for Rebels have been Higgers and Pyle, JOC (James O'Connor) has had 1 from memory maybe 2. They are pretty even on kick metres, with JOC (James O'Connor) slightly better per kick but kicking less.

I am not at all sold on deciding a flyhalf on those parameters, but I agree the turnovers and missed tackles won't be helping Quade. I think FP's point about not tackling properly is also a key point.

 

[southsider]

Rugby Stats had Cooper attempting 12, making 7 (58%), ineffective2 (17%) and missing 3 (25%)

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match21312.html

ineffective tackles are a tricky business, a ineffective tackle can be someone tackling a player then the tackled player popping the ball off the ground...more of a indication of the fowards not being at the breakdown quick enough than a crap tackle

 

[USARugger]

barbarian

I didn't miss any of his other runs. There was one pop pass he forced for no reason that directly resulted in a turnover.

My point was that he is not carrying well against large, physical sides. The Lions are a large, physical side and we need someone who can get us over the gain line and on the front foot. Sita was deficient against the Stormers in this regard as well.

Concerning when their entire role in attack is to bend the line and they are getting stuffed into the turf by Super Rugby sides before making it over. I think Sita only had 1 run that got him over the adv. as well, maybe 2.

 

[barbarian]

barbarian
My point was that he is not carrying well against large, physical sides. The Lions are a large, physical side and we need someone who can get us over the gain line and on the front foot. Sita was deficient against the Stormers in this regard as well.

I don't think the video proves that point.
.

 

[USARugger]

1/7=14.28%

Want me to do the same for Higginbotham playing the Stormers next week? He doesn't exactly have a reputation as a 'big bopper' but the stats and video footage of them playing the same side one week apart says otherwise.

P.S. this has nothing to do with Palu being a 'Tah and everything to do with the fact that he will likely be the Wallaby 8

 

[Braveheart81]

1/7=14.28%

Want me to do the same for Higginbotham playing the Stormers next week? He doesn't exactly have a reputation as a 'big bopper' but the stats and video footage of them playing the same side one week apart says otherwise.

P.S. this has nothing to do with Palu being a 'Tah and everything to do with the fact that he will likely be the Wallaby 8

Rugbystats.com.au lists Palu's game against the Stormers as 61 minutes, 7 tackles, 1 offload, 7 runs for 26m, 2 missed tackles.

Higgers's game against the Stormers as 80 minutes, 10 tackles, 1 offload, 7 runs for 30m, 1 line break, 3 turnovers, and 1 missed tackle.

Certainly Higginbotham's stats for that game are better but only by a small amount. On the other hand, Palu's stats against the Brumbies are better run metre wise than against the Stormers.

Personally I think they should be the starting 6 and 8 against the Lions. I think they bring quite different things to the team.

 

[USARugger]

I'm not saying Palu shouldn't play (he should). I just hope he carries stronger. We do not have many guys that can consistently get over the line and it will be a massive part of winning the series.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Rugbystats.com.au lists Palu's game against the Stormers as 61 minutes, 7 tackles, 1 offload, 7 runs for 26m, 2 missed tackles.

Higgers's game against the Stormers as 80 minutes, 10 tackles, 1 offload, 7 runs for 30m, 1 line break, 3 turnovers, and 1 missed tackle.

Certainly Higginbotham's stats for that game are better but only by a small amount. On the other hand, Palu's stats against the Brumbies are better run metre wise than against the Stormers.

Personally I think they should be the starting 6 and 8 against the Lions. I think they bring quite different things to the team.

Do you (or anyone else) know exactly how the run metres are calculated? It seems to me that it is a measure of how far the player runs with the ball after he receives it. It does not appear to be a measure of how far he gets over the gain line. If that is the case, I believe it is meaningless. A player like Cliff Palu will generally take the ball much deeper than say a prop or lock nearer the breakdown. His rum metres might then be far greater than the other, but he more often than not still gets caught behind the gain line, where the other (Scott Sio for example) might make only a couple of metres but that is invariably over the gain line and gets the defence moving backwards. I know which measure I think has more value.

 

[Braveheart81]

Do you (or anyone else) know exactly how the run metres are calculated? It seems to me that it is a measure of how far the player runs with the ball after he receives it. It does not appear to be a measure of how far he gets over the gain line. If that is the case, I believe it is meaningless. A player like Cliff Palu will generally take the ball much deeper than say a prop or lock nearer the breakdown. His rum metres might then be far greater than the other, but he more often than not still gets caught behind the gain line, where the other (Scott Sio for example) might make only a couple of metres but that is invariably over the gain line and gets the defence moving backwards. I know which measure I think has more value.

I believe they are total metres run with the ball so it does count metres behind the advantage line.

It is the only stat available so there isn't much choice in what to use.

I don't think Palu's runs are much different from anyone else in that regard. He's not receiving the ball 10m behind the advantage line. Most of his runs are from fairly close to the advantage line. There are several players I would say are used more as the crash ball runners for the Waratahs like Timani and TPN.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I believe they are total metres run with the ball so it does count metres behind the advantage line.

It is the only stat available so there isn't much choice in what to use.

I don't think Palu's runs are much different from anyone else in that regard. He's not receiving the ball 10m behind the advantage line. Most of his runs are from fairly close to the advantage line. There are several players I would say are used more as the crash ball runners for the Waratahs like Timani and TPN.

Thanks BH. I will stick with my view then that as a measure, it is meaningless. I mean, does it also include distance travelled when crabbing? Or only in a straight line forwards? I will also continue to disagree about where Cliff receives the ball. My impression is that he more often receives it deeper than most other forward runners, and most often (at least in the past year or two) is tackled behind the gain line. I do recognise his ability to offload in the tackle however. So, if he is selected in the test team as expected, I hope he performs to the levels you see rather than as I see them.