Wallabies vs England, Perth

[tranquility]

Slipper has only played a handful of games, but he has not be clobbered by anyone. Slipper is one of those rare tight 5 players that played premier rugby straight out of school and never looked out of place. Has probably played 30 games for the Gold Coast Breakers. Very unusual decision without a doubt, but I haven't seen him get knocked around by too many at scrum time. This could easily change come Saturday night however.

 

[rsea]

Conquest of England with the Baa's? I think that's over doing it a bit. The game was a 2nd string Wabs Vs 2nd String Poms. Why wouldn't you experiment and thow out some young guys for experience.
Saturday is a different matter though. Clearly he's seen something in Slipper no one else has had the opportunity to.

I'm still firmly in camp Deans. Some of the stuff he's doing with selections are off the track Connelly or Jones took but frankly that doesn't bother me. The squads got more depth in the backs than it has for a long time and once we've got a fit pack we'll be in a similar boat there as well. I still like where we're headed, I just hope all the pieces of the puzzle fall into the right places in 12 months time.

I certainly feel better about our prospects of the next world cup atm than I did 12 months out from the last...

 

[Groucho]

Conquest of England with the Baa's? I think that's over doing it a bit. The game was a 2nd string Wabs Vs 2nd String Poms. Why wouldn't you experiment and thow out some young guys for experience.
Saturday is a different matter though. Clearly he's seen something in Slipper no one else has had the opportunity to.

I'm still firmly in camp Deans. Some of the stuff he's doing with selections are off the track Connelly or Jones took but frankly that doesn't bother me. The squads got more depth in the backs than it has for a long time and once we've got a fit pack we'll be in a similar boat there as well. I still like where we're headed, I just hope all the pieces of the puzzle fall into the right places in 12 months time
I certainly feel better about our prospects of the next world cup atm than I did 12 months out from the last...

I agree. Deans makes a leftfield selection of an exciting young player and suddenly the moaners are out in force. There's a lot of confident talk on this forum about how different 'our' selection are from Deans', meaning Deans is therefore wrong. Well, one thing we may have fneglected to factor in is what our day jobs are, and what Deans' is.

 

[DPK]

A back and former AB who picks rookie props? Only joking, I get your point.

 

[MrMouse]

:nta:

So we have a LHP coming back from injury and bench back up who has done what?

Unfortunately the problem with Aus is LHP, not THP so we have a very limited list of technically adept LHPs which finishes at Robinson, the rest are chosen to our detriment in S14 for their hit ups and lateral defense.

I couldn't agree more. The question is, do you a) send in the laughing stock (Cowan), or b) send in the kid with potential who could be forever scarred by the experience. Or c) just pray? And re Daley, given I pumped for him to be included if he was >50% fit, I have no right to comment.

 

[MrMouse]

Although not utilized by Queensland in a starting role until the tail end of this year's Investec Bank Super 14, Slipper performed strongly in the opportunities he received, and showcased his versatility on Tuesday night when he played on both sides of the scrum poorly (from what I hear) for the Australian Barbarians.

The presence of Slipper, who was not an original selection in the Qantas Wallabies squad, instead being included among the Barbarians group; is one of three personnel alterations among the run on reserves from last weekend’s Test match to satisfy RD's one-man circle jerk on talent promotion.

Fixed

 

[MrMouse]

So if we use that logic, then Phil Waugh should be #7, and Turner should be 14 etc.

You said it :yay

 

[daz]

In fact, after the Tuesday game, he more or less said he had no issues with the result, partly as he was "meddling". To me, this was another alarming lapse of judgement, to so concede momentum and the capability of conquest to England knowing the very weaknesses we'd surely have the following Saturday.

IMO, no-one is ever going to remember the result of that game. No sheep-stations hung on the result and no silverware was up for grabs. In that context, why not try a few tricks and oddities out of the box? Weekes being carded hurt nothing except perhaps his ego (and the coach would not have reamed him a new one after the game), and perhaps playing a few guys out of position will pay dividends in the future. However, that was a mid-week game. If he did that in a Test and compromised the result, well, that is a whole other box of onions.

My gut and heart agree with the comments about English momentum and potentially de-valuing the Gold jersey by throwing it to any old Tom, Dick, or Harry (the original tripod???), but my head say this may be a fucking master-stroke come 2011.

Genius or Fool? We shall see....

 

[Sandpit Fan]

I agree with the selection of Brugess as at least Cooper has already played with him and knows what to expect.

Yeah...that would be the unexpected!! Passes spraying around like a mad womans shit. Still for all our sakes I hope he has one of his occaisional better games and pulls it together a bit until Genia gets subbed on

 

[Lee Grant]

I agree. Deans makes a leftfield selection of an exciting young player and suddenly the moaners are out in force. There's a lot of confident talk on this forum about how different 'our' selection are from Deans', meaning Deans is therefore wrong. Well, one thing we may have fneglected to factor in is what our day jobs are, and what Deans' is.

One of your best of many Groucho.

 

[Scotty]

Beale. Raw deal. Should have started to see if he can deliver at the highest level. We already know the little bloke is mostly good, sometimes great, but gets slapped around a little when the going gets tough.

So now we get to learn nothing.

The question is, if we were playing in the 3N this weekend, who would people select:

Hynes
Beale
JOC (James O'Connor)

I'd probably go for Hynes with his much better defense, and increase experience not to mention is counter attacking form for the Reds, although it would be tempting to pick JOC (James O'Connor) as well. I can however confirm my third choice by a long way would be Beale. So why is it a raw deal for Beale? Surely he knew before the Fiji game there would be very little chance he would be playing against England, surely it was more of a raw deal for Hynes and JOC (James O'Connor) to miss out vs Fiji than it is for Beale to miss out (actually he is still on the bench) vs England.

 

[RedsHappy]

One of your best of many Groucho.

OK, OK. But this also true: Rugby is a business now. JO'N knows that if it's not a long-term combination of (Wallabies and S14 teams) winning a lot and entertaining quite a lot, it will decline relative to other sports. In fact, sadly, that exactly what is happening to Australian rugby. Our silverware accretion rate has fallen off alarmingly in the last 5+ years, the S14 teams bar Reds 2010 have declining attendances, etc.

Deans' actual W-L track record _over two full seasons and with huge media support_ is not good. 2008 all forgivable, the latter part of 2009, much less so IMO. Australia is not winning enough big games. Crowds and general interest in the game is declining with its market share vs other sports in real strife.

So, for one, I will make no apology at all for offering up a critique of Deans and, more so, his selections. Re Deans' 'day job', he is paid huge money (rumoured: $A1m per year), and he has to very soon show some results and sustained results, not 'oncers' like Brisbane Boks and Wales late last year. Just because he's got this pedestal and income, does not mean we can't all have a crack at doing a better job online! . I'll stay quieter and cut him and his coaching group more slack when we see sustained excellence in the Australian team and an ROI on the big investment made in the coaching staff.

 

[rsea]

We all think Deans was given the job of putting forward the strongest Wallabies team possible for the WC. Sadly everything else along the way is just a check point or a marker of performance.

To move forward you sometimes need to go backwards first. Deans would know that the team needs a stronger showing this year to build confidence within the squad. I hope it happens but I won't be hanging him out to dry if it doesn't.

 

[Blue]

For all these people that whinge about Deans I would love to know what they think another coach could have donn differently. The pool of players remains the same, there are hardly any blatant ommissions (except Baxter for now but let's see how the current guys go first.)

I think Australia had a couple of years of having less highly talented players to choose from compared to previous years, not only in key positions but also in terms of depth. That has quickly changed this year but you can't pick the guys with broken arms, bum knees and other injuries.

Although I feel for Beale I think Deans is doing the right thing replacing him with the kid. That fast stepping, sniping running is something I think the English defense will battle with (and so they have already). Against other teams Beale might be more suited and I think long term Beale is still the answer.

Right now Deans is doing the right thing. He has to test out the depth (well he has no choice in some cases). Get to the World Cup not wondering which are the ebst combos. In the last World Cup there were many question marks in this department.

Is it just me or would there have been less of this moaning if Deans was an Aussie?

(Still think he has totally missed a trick with not brining BAxter back - he had his best Super Rugby season ever.)

 

[fatprop]

Slipper has only played a handful of games, but he has not be clobbered by anyone. Slipper is one of those rare tight 5 players that played premier rugby straight out of school and never looked out of place. Has probably played 30 games for the Gold Coast Breakers. Very unusual decision without a doubt, but I haven't seen him get knocked around by too many at scrum time. This could easily change come Saturday night however.

He was clobbered on tuesday

 

[Blue]

The question is, if we were playing in the 3N this weekend, who would people select:

Hynes
Beale
JOC (James O'Connor)

I'd probably go for Hynes with his much better defense, and increase experience not to mention is counter attacking form for the Reds, although it would be tempting to pick JOC (James O'Connor) as well. I can however confirm my third choice by a long way would be Beale. So why is it a raw deal for Beale? Surely he knew before the Fiji game there would be very little chance he would be playing against England, surely it was more of a raw deal for Hynes and JOC (James O'Connor) to miss out vs Fiji than it is for Beale to miss out (actually he is still on the bench) vs England.

We forget Deans was a fullback. If there is one position where he will know what he wants, and what needs to be worked on with each possible player, it's 15.

Let's see who he picks in the 3N. If Kiddo blows them off the Park in the next games he has to start the 3N.

I also think part of the problem is that not one of the four guys are actually out and out fullbacks, ie have played the bulk of their rugby in that position so he has to try and figure out who is best suited which means experimenting (I stand to be corrected but I remember Hynes only on the wing for years, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) all over the show, Baele as a 10, Kiddo also a utility player). Burke and LAtham were out and out fullbacks. None of these guys are (yet).

 

[RugbyReg]

Blue you are right. I was thinking that the other day. This year we had Hynes at the Reds, Beale at the Tahs, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at the Brums and JOC (James O'Connor) at the Force. All manufactured fullbacks I guess you could say.

 

[Ruggo]

The question is, if we were playing in the 3N this weekend, who would people select:

Hynes
Beale
JOC (James O'Connor)

I'd probably go for Hynes with his much better defense, and increase experience not to mention is counter attacking form for the Reds, although it would be tempting to pick JOC (James O'Connor) as well. I can however confirm my third choice by a long way would be Beale. So why is it a raw deal for Beale? Surely he knew before the Fiji game there would be very little chance he would be playing against England, surely it was more of a raw deal for Hynes and JOC (James O'Connor) to miss out vs Fiji than it is for Beale to miss out (actually he is still on the bench) vs England.

I get what you are saying Scotty but this is not a tri nations game. I too was pissed that Hynes was not selected but upon reflection I can see some sense in why he wasn't. We all know Hynes is safe as houses and will perform on the big stage. JOC (James O'Connor) earnt his spot and Beale needs the game time that will allow him to become better on the big stage. I am confident Hynes will feature in the comming weeks. On this base, regardless of how he plays, I would also like to see Saia Fainga'a start next weekend also as he is the best candidate to be number two to TPN through the tri nations. Bring TPN back through a run with Parramatta.

Personally I would like to see our best tri nations side announced for the Ireland game with the development and experiments to cease then. This is when I would expect TPN to reclaim the 2 jersey and hopefully we see Hynes then as I also see him as the best candidate for the 15 jersey.

As for Slipper, congratulations to the lad and I can't help but think of how Deans plucked Alexander from nowhere and in hindsight it has proven to be a raging success.

Go the Wallabies.

 

[RedsHappy]

Blue you are right. I was thinking that the other day. This year we had Hynes at the Reds, Beale at the Tahs, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at the Brums and JOC (James O'Connor) at the Force. All manufactured fullbacks I guess you could say.

Indeed, astute summary. But, as Scotty has noted, would you not agree that, on a balance of important attributes (speed, high-ball, defence work, skilled counter-attack, performance consistency through the S14 season, etc), Hynes was definitely the stand out in 2010 and thus deserved a prominent Wallaby selection? IMO, that's what makes his omission on Saturday so risky and odd, or, if some want a more Deans-hugging version, surprising.

 

[RedsHappy]

IMO, no-one is ever going to remember the result of that game. No sheep-stations hung on the result and no silverware was up for grabs. In that context, why not try a few tricks and oddities out of the box? Weekes being carded hurt nothing except perhaps his ego (and the coach would not have reamed him a new one after the game), and perhaps playing a few guys out of position will pay dividends in the future. However, that was a mid-week game. If he did that in a Test and compromised the result, well, that is a whole other box of onions.

My gut and heart agree with the comments about English momentum and potentially de-valuing the Gold jersey by throwing it to any old Tom, Dick, or Harry (the original tripod???), but my head say this may be a fucking master-stroke come 2011.

Genius or Fool? We shall see....

Well yes fair point again Daz, but did all that 'meddling' (Deans' words) and shuffling and pulling JO'C and kind of humiliating Weeks with swapping him to wrong prop position etc, really produce anything useful? Where perhaps we differ Daz is that I think in these scenarios Aus should fight to win 100% of the time, and win really well if possible, every 'B' game that puts real psychological pressure on the immediately facing 'A' side, namely England A (England actually, you know what I mean) in this case.

I know you may well doubt the analogy, but in a sport we have largely globally dominated for most of the last 15 years, cricket, the second-string Australia A team would never have treated the need for victory so casually as Deans did last Tuesday, especially if the top team was about to play the other side's top team 5 days later. The idea would have been to use the second-string team to add momentum and pressure for the top game's benefit. Plus, the pride of the whole thing. Just using the second half as some kind of 'experiment' and 'who cares' as we did last Tuesday, IMO also subtly abuses the crowd who paid good money to watch that game and, I bet, the Aussies there really wanted our team to go all-out for a big win to kill the Poms' overall hopes for Tuesday and Saturday and all thereafter.