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Wallabies Tri Nations

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Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
We haven't see how Cooper would go with a hard running 12 outside him
We don't know how Douglas or Simmons would step up as locks
We haven't found out if Hodgson is big enough to play 6 or 8 internationally
Whether Hynes could show the same form for the Reds at fullback for the Wallabies

Key points you make Scotty. Hodgson has played about 30minutes of test rugby so far this season, which is almost a criminal offence on Deans part after the incredible season he had with the Force. You are right, we still have absolutely no idea if he is good enough at this level yet due to the limited game time he has received.

Is there any logic in the insanity of Deans selection policy?
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
.....

The problem with the June tests are that we haven't really found anything good, or learned anything new. Arguably Slipper and Fa'ainga are the exception to this.

We haven't see how Cooper would go with a hard running 12 outside him
We don't know how Douglas or Simmons would step up as locks
We haven't found out if Hodgson is big enough to play 6 or 8 internationally
Whether the backrow would be better balanced with Mumm or Hodgson at 6 and Elsom at 8
How a bigger backline might be more effective
Whether Hynes could show the same form for the Reds at fullback for the Wallabies

The June tests were the place to get some answers to these questions, not the trinations series. .....

Scotty, oh, how right you are IMO. The June Tests should have been used for just these types of 'high yielding experiments'. Either via run-on, or via good time off the bench (perhaps mostly the latter). The Tris are the events to put the best discoveries from these experiments to work, and can the ones that didn't. It's been said many times, but Deans' poor use of the bench pre-Tris is - polite version - inexplicable and hugely wasteful.

This is where I struggle with the 'development, youth and depth' PR line. The actual substance behind it seems to amount to giving the coaches vast over-credit for promoting Cooper, Genia, Pocock, JO'C (whilst conveniently forgetting Barnes and Burgess and Mumm as less good promos). But that's what top coaches are meant to do - promote and develop new talent - before they get out of bed, not a sort of 'that's all there is, now go out and win games'. If this line had real substance, we'd have seen, e.g., Giteau put aside for at least 2 games in June, plus precisely the type of creative experiments and large bench use you advocate.

Seeing all this - or not seeing it - is one of the many reasons I believe Deans is rapidly losing self-confidence that the knows how to win with these Wallabies. I sincerely hope I am wrong and we win 3 or more games in the Tris.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Ash,

Surely it would have been more sensible to throw the likes of Simmons or Douglas in against Fiji or Ireland rather than having them against the Boks or ABs. If there was a plan to have Simmons in the 3N squad, then he should have been at least tested off the bench in one of the June Wallaby games.

The problem with the June tests are that we haven't really found anything good, or learned anything new. Arguably Slipper and Fa'ainga are the exception to this.

We haven't see how Cooper would go with a hard running 12 outside him
We don't know how Douglas or Simmons would step up as locks
We haven't found out if Hodgson is big enough to play 6 or 8 internationally
Whether the backrow would be better balanced with Mumm or Hodgson at 6 and Elsom at 8
How a bigger backline might be more effective
Whether Hynes could show the same form for the Reds at fullback for the Wallabies

The June tests were the place to get some answers to these questions, not the trinations series. I think Deans will stick with the same team vs the Boks, and if we get beaten, he might then make some changes. Will it be fair to throw the likes of Fa'ainga in against the ABs in his maiden test?

This is what I was getting at. And the selection errors really stretch right back to the EOYT 2009. Why did Chisholm et al go and not Wykes, Hocking etc? They may well have failed but at least they would have been tried and we would know. We already know that Chis, Mumm and Sharpe (regardless of S14) do not seem to give what is needed at test level, yet now that is all we have. If somebody else was tried last year or even against Fiji then we wouldn't have the issues of fielding a rookie 2nd row and a rookie front row. That is on top of the questionable selection of players not the best of those remaining fit.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Absolutely. Link has learnt from his mistakes with the Tahs and Stade. The narrow approach he favoured at both teams just wasn't going to get the team over the line against fast counter attacking teams that have a reasonable forward pack. It is why the Tahs failed under his direction and Stade also didn't succeed. The fact he left the backline patterns in place with some improvements I will add shows that he has learnt. Link brought consistancy and application to the pigs and a big part of that was the selection of Van Humphries who gave a lot of drive and passion to the team.

Link is without doubt at this stage the heir apparent for the Wallabies job, but next year will really be the proof for me that he has erased the narrow focus from his planning.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
Opportunity missed.

If the goal really is the World Cup next year, Deans is seriously running out of time to settle on a team. Haha and just on a side note, I remember when the debut of a young Wallaby was a big thing, now it is seriously happening every week - has the Wallaby jersey lost meaning?
 

rsea

Darby Loudon (17)
Scotty, im sure Deans would have liked to throw Simmons in during the June tests, however he was just coming back from a broken cheeckbone and was lacking in match practice and contact training, dont think throwing him in against a test nation would have been a great idea.
I agree with this but it hasn't stopped him with Higginbotham
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Ash,
Surely it would have been more sensible to throw the likes of Simmons or Douglas in against Fiji or Ireland rather than having them against the Boks or ABs. If there was a plan to have Simmons in the 3N squad, then he should have been at least tested off the bench in one of the June Wallaby games.

The problem with the June tests are that we haven't really found anything good, or learned anything new. Arguably Slipper and Fa'ainga are the exception to this.

I tend to think a lot of what you have offered that Deans could have or should have done is great in hindsight. I don't think a lot of it was possible, though. To me, trying Mumm and Sharpe with the big munter Chisolm was the right way, but now in hindsight we know that Sharpe got injured, Mumm went poorly and Chisholm went poorly. However, Mumm was in great form for the S14 this year, and last year Chisholm stood up in tests when selected after an average S14. The Aus A games were the correct opportunity to blood Douglas and Simmons, not the June tests.

The props were indeed a clusterfuck. But the sad fact is that once Alexander and Robinson were gone, we did not have one LHP capable of propping at a test level. As fatprop said, it didn't matter who we selected at THP. I've already mentioned that I thought Baxter should have been brought in one Ma'afu failed, but let's leave it at that.

We haven't see how Cooper would go with a hard running 12 outside him

Barnes and Gits were rightly the first choice 12s and both were tried. Now that we know in hindsight that Gits struggled and still crabbed at 12, we can see that a hard running 12 should be tried. The reality is, there were 4 tests and Barnes and Gits needed to be given a shot.

We don't know how Douglas or Simmons would step up as locks

That's what the Aus A games were for. The big mistake Deans made was not using his bench when Sharpe was injured to give Chapman a real chance.

We haven't found out if Hodgson is big enough to play 6 or 8 internationally

If Brown doesn't cut it here as a good enough ball carrier or have enough of a heavy impact, how could Hodgson at 8? He has less agression than Brown, but is more effective at scrapping.

Whether the backrow would be better balanced with Mumm or Hodgson at 6 and Elsom at 8

Why move Mumm to 6 when he's failed there at test level in the past and plays most of his state rugby now at lock? Plus he's in poor form to begin with. Moving Hogson to 6 and Elsom to 8 might be worth trying, but this combo is still not substantially different from Elsom and Brown.

How a bigger backline might be more effective

Who would you bring in? Cross in woeful form? Chambers and Mortlock are injured, there's no quality backs left of size left. Fainga'a, believe it or not, is not big. The biggest backline we could field at the time has Ioane and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (and Hynes, but see below why he was not selected, and nor should he have been).

Whether Hynes could show the same form for the Reds at fullback for the Wallabies

Hynes was injured initially, and in poor form in the Baabaas games and didn't seem back to full fitness. I've covered that before. I was at the Gosford game and saw Hynes not being able to hit full speed right in front of me, then later on saw him having a slight limp for half the game - again right in front of me. Hynes was never going to be selected, and I'm getting tired of the same posts saying he should have. Like a lot of stuff brought up on this thread, sounds plausible or even great in hindsight, but at the time a decision that made more sense at that point was chosen.

The June tests were the place to get some answers to these questions, not the trinations series. I think Deans will stick with the same team vs the Boks, and if we get beaten, he might then make some changes. Will it be fair to throw the likes of Fa'ainga in against the ABs in his maiden test?

A lot of these questions are being raised as "should haves" in hindsight simply because of the poor form of the people tried. Deans tried to use what he had, and didn't really succeed. At the time (aside from Ma'afu) Deans' choices made sense if you thought about it with the attempt to build momentum and combinations into the 3N.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I agree with this but it hasn't stopped him with Higginbotham

rsea - agree - the 'experiment' with Higginbotham is a real positive. I'm excited to see how he goes, when he does. You can be sure of a huge effort and to have a forward with that pace (he's an ex-back of course) could be decisive in some plays.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
I agree with this but it hasn't stopped him with Higginbotham

Let's hope not.
It would not have hurt Simmons to come off the bench for 20 minutes against Ireland. In fact with Sharpe out it would have been a much wiser selection all around than Chapman.
 
D

daz

Guest
the 'experiment' with Higginbotham is a real positive. I'm excited to see how he goes, when he does.

He does has a history of brain explosions from time to time that has seen him binned at the wrong time (is there ever a right time?). Still, I also don't want to be too harsh on him for that as some mongrel is sorely needed. He just needs to be a bit smarter when he uses his aggression.
 

HG

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Opportunity missed.

If the goal really is the World Cup next year, Deans is seriously running out of time to settle on a team. Haha and just on a side note, I remember when the debut of a young Wallaby was a big thing, now it is seriously happening every week - has the Wallaby jersey lost meaning?

His team for the world cup will be 30 players, and I would expect only around 6 changes from that announced the other day. Most of these will be players coming back from injury.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
He does has a history of brain explosions from time to time that has seen him binned at the wrong time (is there ever a right time?). Still, I also don't want to be too harsh on him for that as some mongrel is sorely needed. He just needs to be a bit smarter when he uses his aggression.

Good point daz. Nothing though could be worse than Shaw. He may just have cost us a spot in the Finals, with that mad act vs Canes, if you recall.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
This is what I was getting at. And the selection errors really stretch right back to the EOYT 2009. Why did Chisholm et al go and not Wykes, Hocking etc?

This is pretty big revisionism, which is what is going on in this thread right now.

We had dirt trackers in 2009 to try out players, which is what they did. Wykes did not show enough in S14 2009 to even be considered for selection. Wykes was a lot better this year. If Wykes WAS selected last year, all and sundry would have been amazed. Plus, I am sure that Hockings was injured. Hell, they plucked Daisy Dennis for the dirt trackers for the reasons you said. You don't just dump established players to randomly try someone who has not shown much at S14 level unless you have dirt trackers or they are a unique talent. Wykes was neither. Hockings at least had shown more potential, but was frequently injured.

And didn't Jism go OK on the EOYT 2009?

This thread is getting a little frustrating.
 
D

daz

Guest
Good point daz. Nothing though could be worse than Shaw. He may just have cost us a spot in the Finals, with that mad act vs Canes, if you recall.

Well, I see what you mean, but one act can't be used as the reason for not hitting the finals. The Tahs try with 0.00005 seconds to go in game 1 also did it. Many, many little things. Still, lessons learnt I hope and onwards and upwards next year.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Well, I see what you mean, but one act can't be used as the reason for not hitting the finals. The Tahs try with 0.00005 seconds to go in game 1 also did it. Many, many little things. Still, lessons learnt I hope and onwards and upwards next year.

Agreed. But the Shaw moment of unforgivable poor control at a crucial point in that game, arguably opened the way for those (2, I think) fast Canes tries with 14 Reds on the park. The Palu try was just in the flow of the game. Not arguing with you here, Daz, just yr good observation re Higgers brought that very, very painful moment re Shaw back into mind.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
We're digressing here, but the Tahs scored because of several absolutely stupid penalties from the Reds, at least two of which were by Shaw. Including one for detatching early from a 5m scrum from the Tahs line, on a Tahs feed where the Tahs scrum was under pressure. Link dropped Shaw because he gave away stupid penalties initially.
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
Well, I see what you mean, but one act can't be used as the reason for not hitting the finals. The Tahs try with 0.00005 seconds to go in game 1 also did it. Many, many little things. Still, lessons learnt I hope and onwards and upwards next year.

Yeah, the Tah's can beat you twice next year (Y)
 
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