Wallabies Tri Nations

[RedsHappy]

Yep. You know, I keep banging on about just wanting to see improvements and forward progress. I think I should add the condition that only winning 2 games this series is not really what I have in mind....!

Let us recall too that in these June internationals, virtually the only distinguished elements of any of the 6 games (that lasted more than a lone burst of 5 minutes) were: back line play Perth, defence Perth.

I know I may be condemned in some quarters for saying this, but I think that given the above very lean delivered outcomes and today's selections and other recent odd statements from Deans, it's likely that Deans has lost, or is fast losing, self-confidence in his ability to create a team of Wallabies that has the right winning mindset, and then to guide that team to consistent wins. I wish it were not so, but I really do think he is struggling, and we see this on the field, it's not just a case of 'blame the players and injuries'.

 

[Gnostic]

Turner being dropped was fair, he didn't impress Deans and no doubt he's a good player, but there are just better wingers than him. Mitchell being dropped was borderline harsh, being said Super 14 form shouldn't mean that much it seems Mitchell has had his chances to perform and he didn't perform, it's a simple work review you don't impress with three chances at the level you are demoted.

Giteau's form should have had him dropped, it didn't but I think we will see him benched for the Boks game. Deans and selectors should ask themselves when finding a match day 22, if Giteau will perform. The answer is no. I think Deans will actually drop Giteau and Anthony Fainga'a will be the replacement. That seems fair? I like the idea of Giteau as a bench player, can cover 9,10,12 hell even 15. For me it's him and O'Connor on the bench. But Deans is arrogant as all hell or skeptical one or the other, and he selects a team and he barely ever uses the bench. That's the flaw with Deans.

I don't give a shit about next year. Because we won't progress until we win. I just wanna see the Wallabies do well in this Tri-Nations series. None of us are expecting the Wallabies to win, but we don't wanna come last again. It was humiliating last year, losing in the last 20 minutes time after time after time.

Has anyone ever thought the last place could go to Mortlock?

I have to agree with what you said. But Deans is totally inconsistant. He drops Mitchell for his flaws and inconsistancy. What about Brown, Chisholm, Sharpe and Mumm.

I thought after the EOYT the win over Wales was actually a bad thing. I enjoyed the game and could see what the coaching staff were trying to get to. The problem was I thought then and it has been re-inforced now that the win covered the issues with the squad and Deans selection policies.

The second row may every third game or so get parity or a modicum of dominance in the set piece. Mumm (for all that he is a 6), Sharpe and Chisholm are useless at nearly everything else. Chisholm topped the ball carries against the Irish but with all those carries he made no impact at all. Sharpe carries but for a bloke over 115kg he is tackled so easily. Mumm is great as long as he gets a clean hole to run into. All three have been selected again and IMO the only one who real argument can be made for is Mumm given his counter maul work and lineout calling.

Brown gives nothing and apart from one or two games he never has. He has taken the penalties out of his game but he offers zero support for Pocock.

The other issues with Deans are as you said, his total lack of willingness to use the bench, but I also feel he has played injured players as well. TPN and Genia are the most recent examples. Does anybody believe the crap that Genia wasn't still carrying the injury when he played against England? He obviously wasn't running freely and then he played most of the game with a broken hand despite Burgess having played the best game he ever had the week before.

I am rapidly losing faith in Deans and I think I am not the only one.

 

[Gnostic]

I feel gutted for the Shmoo. Sure he's had a few defensive lapses of late but so has the rest of the team and he is a good inside ball option off Quade. I expect we will see him later in the 3N series. With only 4 wingers in the 28 man squad, some of which will be covering 13 and/or 15, surely 1 of the last 2 positions will be a specialist winger. Obviously it's not Shmoo or Turner, so who? Shepherd (he will pull up injured lacing his boots on so please no), Cummins (worse than Shmoo & Turner), Davies (injured? bit small IMO) so I reckon McCabe could be the man and well deserved if he gets it.

He would be if he had put himself in that position at all this year. He hasn't so therefore he isn't.

He also failed to do any work off the ball. His kick chace of any but his own kicks was lazy. His support play from depth was also poor. He is with out doubt the best individual winger in Oz with ball in hand. His problems are as I have said along with his much discussed defensive and handling issues.

 

[gone]

I have to agree with what you said. But Deans is totally inconsistant. He drops Mitchell for his flaws and inconsistancy. What about Brown, Chisholm, Sharpe and Mumm.

I think you answered your own question by naming 3 of the 4 second rowers in the squad. A lack of legitimate options. It is too early to throw a pair of Simmons and Douglas together into a test match. Contrast that to the wing situation where you have Ioane, Hynes and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the squad plus one of Mitchell, Turner or Shepherd likely to be added.

Completely disagree with your assessment that a argument came be made for Mumm - he has been the worst of the 3 in the tests to date, he is too soft for an international 2nd rower and the only place he should be considered for a bench spot due to his ability to cover 2nd row and 6. I think Sharpe has been playing alright and is the only legimate test quality 2nd rower available. However, I do agree on Brown but also once again see a lack of legitimate options.

Interestingly I went to a sports lunch late last year where Dean's was speaking - when asked about how he thought the Wallabies were building for the world cup he said he was very confident and all he needed to find was a pair of 2nd rowers. Wouldn't be surprised if he has been working extremely hard on making Vickerman is back next year.

 

[Gnostic]

You missed my point. This is Deans second squad of this year and his 8th overall. He hasn't deviated from the 3 second rowers I named in the whole time. Surely he has enough sense that he needs to try something else. Even if that something else fails at least he tried it. There are options. Hand, Wykes, Hocking, Peterson (U20), Battye (U20), Simmons (played Oz A why not the tests instead of one of those above). None of those I have mentioned have even been exposed to the Wallabies system. In the 2nd row more then anywhere else Deans has totally failed to build any depth.

Ioane is injured and IMO should be bracketed in the squad, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is not a winger but will get picked there again as Mr Fixit. He doesn't have the pace of any of the other contenders but gets the nod on total reliability. Like I said in my previous post Mitchel IMO gets the chop not because of his poor handling when he loses concentration, but for his defence and most of all his lazyness in off the ball work. That was seen in the Club game for Randwick as well if the commentators could get over their gushing about his excellent counter attack try. Turner on the other hand hasn't had a chance this year despite as good a season as Mitchell. His defensive stats in the S14 were better than any other wing in Oz apart from McAbe.

 

[disco]

It seems that most of us on the board want a bigger team & so do I, this is my 1st 22.

1.Benn Robinson
2.Stephen Moore
3.Slipper
4. Simmons
5. Sharpe
6.Higginbotham
7.Pocock
8.Elsom
9.Genia
10.Cooper
11.Hynes
12.Fainga'a
13.Horne - (Needs to step up a level)
14.AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. James O'conner -(Until Ioane is back.)

16. Fainga'a 17.Daley 18.Mumm 19.Hodgson 20.Burgess.21 Giteau 22.Beale.

Just saw that Deans has only named 28 & not 30, I have a feeling that Cameron Shepherd may get one spot don't know about the otherspot maybe Kane Douglas or maybe Hugh Mcmeniman!

 

[gone]

You missed my point. This is Deans second squad of this year and his 8th overall. He hasn't deviated from the 3 second rowers I named in the whole time. Surely he has enough sense that he needs to try something else. Even if that something else fails at least he tried it. There are options. Hand, Wykes, Hocking, Peterson (U20), Battye (U20), Simmons (played Oz A why not the tests instead of one of those above). None of those I have mentioned have even been exposed to the Wallabies system. In the 2nd row more then anywhere else Deans has totally failed to build any depth.

I must still be missing your point - none of those options you mention are upto test standard let alone super 14 standard (with the exception of Simmons). It would be madness to throw them into a test match. Just like it would be madness to go into a test match with a front row of Daley/Fainga'a/Ma'afu, but unfortunately there was no choice there with 2 props and 2 hookers out. If Deans had given any of the above 2nd rowers a run (with the exception of Simmons) he would have been crucified just like he was for his front row selections which were enforced by injury.

We have more chance winning a test match with Sharpe, Mumm and Chisholm. If you want to drop them put up some legitmate options and not a bunch of kids unproven at super 14 level.

 

[tranquility]

I find it disorientating how rapid Slippers development has been. In almost all mock XV on this thread have Slipper as the starting TH. I know their are alot of injuries, but it is one of those really unusual sporting stories. Three or four weeks ago, most posters outside of QLD probably didn't even know who he was. The great thing is he probably has about 5-8 kgs of natural development left in him.

I hope Shepperd gets in the squad.

 

[Gnostic]

Hand, Wykes, Hocking - not S14 standard? Then you say there was no option but Ma'afu. Palmer (doesn't offer as much around the park as Ma'afu who doesn't offer much but his set piece work is very good) and that isn't mentioning Baxter who wasn't injured then. Daley and S. Fainga'a were definitely the best options but the back up hooker should have been either Fitzpatrick or Charles - how was Edmonds looking to the future and how could he offer more than either of those two who are both reasonable to good in the set piece and dynamic around the park. It is madness to continue picking Chisholm, Mumm and Sharpe and expect a different outcome. Not just this year but last EOYT. Why wasn't somebody different taken on the EOYT after the debacle that was the 2009 3N.

It is a myth that Deans didn't have options who were as good as those he picked. He was rightly vilified for his selection of Ma'afu and those who bagged him from the start (such as me) have been vindicated by Ma'afu's performances. Unfortunately Ma'afu really is last man standing now with Palmer and Baxter also on the injury list now ( Word is that Palmer is carrying a foot/ankle injury).

 

[gone]

1. Daley
2. Fainga'a
3. Palmer
4. Wykes
5. Hockings

If that ran out it would have to be the worst tight 5 in wallaby history...

It's funny that after all the criticism that Deans received (especially on this board) saying that he was using the tests for development and ignoring experienced players that you come out and say he wasn't looking to the future... Why don't we just pick the entire under 20s team? Actually they got beaten by New Zealand, how about the schoolboys

Going back to the front row - yes, Ma'afu wasn't flash (in fact he was awful) in the tests but some people (Robbie Deans and myself) thought he was the form Australian tighthead in the super 14. You concede that Daley and Faianga were "definitely the best options available" and they were just as awful, Daley was man handled by his opposite at scrumtime and missed a tackle that let in a try in the loss against England. Faianga is just too small to be an international hooker. We were going to get dusted at scrumtime even if Palmer or Baxter was at tighthead.

The final thing I have to say is all your options have not shown the form Sharpe, Mumm and to a lesser extent Chisholm (who to be fair was pretty ordinary in this years super 14) at super 14. Let them prove themself at the lower level. Believe it or not Deans is trying to win best matches with the limited tools at his disposal.

 

[Reddy!]

Mitchell actually played some good footy in the domestic tests and lets not even mention the Super 14. It seems one half of bad footy against the Irish has cost him. Mitchell is the number 1 finisher in Australian rugby and is an asset on the wing with Cooper calling the shots at flyhalf. This is going to be a long Tri-Nations.

 

[Reddy!]

A lot of people, Deans for one, need to stopped, sat down and reminded that in last years Tri Nations we won one fucking game.

Does that mean if we win 2 games we are on track for the World Cup?...oh goodie!

 

[DPK]

Would you say that would be a Great Leap Forward, Reddy!?

 

[Joe Blow]

Giteau is not a test level 10. IMO he is not a S15 level 10. He played his best Rugby at 12, and the stupid obsession of playing him at 10 has ruined his chance to cement himself as the best 12 in Oz rugby since Horan.

He was the best 10 in the S14 last year. How can you say he is not a S14 10?
Last year when Dan Carter was injured he was hailed by many around the globe as the best???
I think QC (Quade Cooper) is our #1 5/8 but Giteau is not too bad either.

 

[Joe Blow]

It seems that most of us on the board want a bigger team & so do I, this is my 1st 22.

1.Benn Robinson
2.Stephen Moore
3.Slipper
4. Simmons
5. Sharpe
6.Higginbotham
7.Pocock
8.Elsom
9.Genia
10.Cooper
11.Hynes
12.Fainga'a
13.Horne - (Needs to step up a level)
14.AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
15. James O'conner -(Until Ioane is back.)

16. Fainga'a 17.Daley 18.Mumm 19.Hodgson 20.Burgess.21 Giteau 22.Beale.

Just saw that Deans has only named 28 & not 30, I have a feeling that Cameron Shepherd may get one spot don't know about the otherspot maybe Kane Douglas or maybe Hugh Mcmeniman!

That team is pretty close. I doubt Deans will start A.Fainga'a. He will probably go with Barnes at 12 and bring Fainga'a off the bench in the last 20mins to see how he goes.
Daley can only play LH and they need a bloke on the bench who can play both sides. I'd say Maafu to start and Slipper on the bench.

MMM never cut it at test level(particularly as a lock) and that's why he pissed off to Japan. His body positioning is too high with ball in hand and he gets knocked over and turned over frequently. He is a Dean Mumm clone with less skill and a bit more mongrel.
I'm impressed by the selectors for this squad although some of these new guys (Simmons, Fainga'a.A,) could have been given test time against England and Ireland to see if they were up to it.

 

[Gnostic]

He was the best 10 in the S14 last year. How can you say he is not a S14 10?
Last year when Dan Carter was injured he was hailed by many around the globe as the best???
I think QC (Quade Cooper) is our #1 5/8 but Giteau is not too bad either.

Giteau was the best in Oz last year by a whisker. I would rate a couple of Saffas above him last year, and he was hailed by some expat Oz fans around the globe.

I would rather see Barnes as 10 than Giteau, against the Bok or AB Giteau has not shown anything playing at 10 and on form he is lucky to get near the squad.

 

[Gnostic]

1. Daley
2. Fainga'a
3. Palmer
4. Wykes
5. Hockings

If that ran out it would have to be the worst tight 5 in wallaby history...

It's funny that after all the criticism that Deans received (especially on this board) saying that he was using the tests for development and ignoring experienced players that you come out and say he wasn't looking to the future... Why don't we just pick the entire under 20s team? Actually they got beaten by New Zealand, how about the schoolboys

Going back to the front row - yes, Ma'afu wasn't flash (in fact he was awful) in the tests but some people (Robbie Deans and myself) thought he was the form Australian tighthead in the super 14. You concede that Daley and Faianga were "definitely the best options available" and they were just as awful, Daley was man handled by his opposite at scrumtime and missed a tackle that let in a try in the loss against England. Faianga is just too small to be an international hooker. We were going to get dusted at scrumtime even if Palmer or Baxter was at tighthead.

The final thing I have to say is all your options have not shown the form Sharpe, Mumm and to a lesser extent Chisholm (who to be fair was pretty ordinary in this years super 14) at super 14. Let them prove themself at the lower level. Believe it or not Deans is trying to win best matches with the limited tools at his disposal.

What a joke. You don't have much idea of front row play do you. You selectively quote me and attempt to deride my argument by saying I suggested to pick that tight five all at once.

What I was saying is that Deans has had two previous years to blood alternatives in the second row, while we had the best front row we could get on the paddock, the best he did was select Dennis (a 6 who plays 2nd row for his club) in the EOYT squad. He did not expand the depth, he continued with the tried and failed so that when this year rolled around and the best front row was all injured, he had no choice but to select the tried and failed again as it would have been suicide to field a totally uncapped tight five. He failed again to include any other second rowers in the squad though apart from Simmons. Why not Douglas who was just behind Sharpe as the form lock in the Oz S14 sides. Then along come the June tests and he again continues with the same. Now the 3N and the same. Two of those three (at least you can admit Chisholm was indifferent in the S14) played well in the S14, but they have had their chances at Test level. After the 1st England match most here could see where it was going. My whole point is that 3 seasons into Deans tenure and we have the same second row trotting out who have failed on each previous occasion when the pressure come on.

You don't even touch on the bewildering choice of Edmonds over Fitzpatrick or Charles.

 

[tranquility]

Joe Blow

MMM never cut it at test level(particularly as a lock) and that's why he pissed off to Japan. His body positioning is too high with ball in hand and he gets knocked over and turned over frequently. He is a Dean Mumm clone with less skill and a bit more mongrel.

In defense of Hughy this is a ludicrous statement. Hughy was the complete package, barring the fact he couldn't stay on the field. He was truly destructive at lock or 6 and is one of the three great tragedies off the Wallaby forward pack this decade. The other two being Heenan and Al Kanaar of course. Damn shame to see his name rubbed in the mud like that.

 

[Langthorne]

Is Fairbrother injured too? Tilse? Ryan? Dunning? I'm not saying I'd pick them all ahead of those in the squad, but it would be interesting to know who is available and who isn't.

On James Slipper - he is the only front row rookie who was introduced to test rugby somewhat sensibly (as a reserve), even though it is too early for him. My main issue is that there are better options available (please, nobody try that "Deans had no choice" BS - he had choices, the ones he made was embarrassing, to put it mildly). Amazingly, quite a few posters are even considering him as a THP starter. Having Robinson at LHP will help a lot, as will Moore, but let's not throw this young guy in as a starter in the Tri Nations just yet.

Giteau was great at the Force, playing 10. Probably his time at the Brumbies this season is part of his general malaise. One thing in his advantage is that his defence make him a lower risk option than Cooper.

Mitchell had a great s14 - in all aspects of the game (even his defence was getting pretty good). What has changed?

Some people want size and aggression, some want the best available players regardless of age, some want a change, some want improvement, some want to blood more young players - do we have any idea what Deans wants? What do the selections tell us?

One other question - how often do the Wallabies train? What the fuck have they been doing? Is the problem that Deans' plans are crap? Are his plans great but the players can't execute them? Are his plans great but the players refuse to even attempt them? Do they not understand his plans? Is there a plan?

 

[Joe Blow]

Joe Blow



In defense of Hughy this is a ludicrous statement. Hughy was the complete package, barring the fact he couldn't stay on the field. He was truly destructive at lock or 6 and is one of the three great tragedies off the Wallaby forward pack this decade. The other two being Heenan and Al Kanaar of course. Damn shame to see his name rubbed in the mud like that.

I am not trying to rub his name in the mud but he really was dissapointing at test level. He certainly had some grunt and attitude to match but was not test standard IMHO. That may have changed in time but he didn't stick around to find out.
I hope I'm wrong and he storms back into test consideration next year at the Rebels.
I'll give you the other two. They were both big losses.