Wallabies 31 Man Squad

[Pfitzy]

I'm not saying they have to change their entire style. But what the Reds did in 2011, and to a lesser degree the last two seasons, is have a game plan for each team.

Where they're falling down in getting the big wins lately is not changing mid-game as other sides lock down on them. Razzle dazzle is only one part of attacking rugby - you need to actually put yourself in a position to do it first, and recognise where you should not do it.

 

[Pfitzy]

I'm still puzzled as to the absence of Chibba. And I'm not convinced Sio has the experience at scrum time to be as useful a squad member as, say, Paddy Ryan.

 

[RoffsChoice]

qwerty51 We've got a great team there and (knock wood) no chance they'll be injured prior to the first test.

 

[RoffsChoice]

Pfitzy I'd prefer Ryan, we just have three tightheads already. What I'd really like is Kepu dropped for Ryan, but I understand why he isn't.

 

[Gnostic]

Nope -it's just a simple fact that winning rugby from 2011 doesn't stack up in 2013 when your pack is up against it and your three quarter line can't make the right decision when it's required

And the RWC plan from 2011 wins games does it.

Try and consider what else the Reds could have done to win that game. Did they have a lineout or any other options at lock and backrow than what they did to correct the issues? No, excepting maybe bringing on Samo earlier, but it seems to me age is finally catching up with the big fella and he isn't so much an 80 or even 60 minute player now days. Did they have a scrum or a backrow to fight it out with the BIL. No.

They went out and played a game plan which gave them a damn good chance of winning and they executed it very well for the most part. Cooper isn't there for two reasons, He and Deans have personal issues and I don't blame Cooper for that either. Second the limited risk averse game plan that has been flagged by the selection of this squad means that Cooper has no place at all there as his skill set is just not suited to that mind numbing negative play. I would argue the same goes for the non-selection of Foley and To'omua if they had anywhere near the test experience of Cooper.

What is truly ironic is the clearly fraudulent statements that Deans has made throughout this year when discussing Cooper and selection and the things he had to prove to be selected. Cooper needed to be less individual in his attack, he need to be more dominant in attack, he was responsible for his team mate's lack of form. Beale and JOC (James O'Connor) to varying degrees do not have the pasing game of Cooper and do not set up players the way Cooper does. Why is that so, because they are not 10's. I am not saying that they are bad players, that would be a ridiculous assertion, what I am saying is they are individualistic players. The risk averse game plan that Deans has developed or perhaps copied from the Waratahs of 2010-2012 doesn't need or want anybody who can pass the ball too much. It is all about risk minimisation. However Deans seeing that the Tahs could rarely score from further out than 5 metres decided that individual "X Factor" could be the deciding factor. So there we go, the selections explained.

I would think that Deans wouldn't be all that happy with Michael Chieka changing the way the Tahs played and changing their training dynamic and focus.Too much emphasis now on supporting ball carriers and backing up.

 

[Gnostic]

Pfitzy I'd prefer Ryan, we just have three tightheads already. What I'd really like is Kepu dropped for Ryan, but I understand why he isn't.

Ryan struggled against Cowan today.

 

[Gnostic]

This is the reality of professional rugby. When the Wallabies are playing 15 tests in a year they are a side in their own right and each series will build on what has come before.

Barring a few bolters and changes forced by injury, the coach is always going to be looking to work with the players they have before and continue building on where they left off.

Whilst a change of coach might result in some new different choices, the basic premise of working with a squad that re-assembles for each series will remain.

I think it is a throwback to amateur days to expect selections to be largely form based with no mind to the team that played together last time.

No the reality is that Deans hasn't built a side that has won the Bledisloe or RWC, or a fully contested 3/4N or met the mission statements of the CEO in the entire time he has been in charge. Or for that matter played with any consistency in results or skill execution.He has made various statements throughout the year about what players needed to do to get selected.
So his statements as well as his selections and tactics are just so much hot air and riddling.

 

[convenient wisdom]

The game plan involving kicking for field position is fraught with risk as well, when you cant win your own lineout let alone the opponents, and their back 3 easily run back through your defence, or garry owen the slippery pill to nervous catchers.Running from your own end is probably not much more risky, at least thr wingers are back expecting you to kick, creating space for a long pass or cross kick. but you have to hold on to the ball,, and win the breakdowns.

 

[Scotty]

So cooper didn't get picked because:

- he isn't physical enough
- he isn't direct enough
- he makes too many errors
- and likely due to the lack of respect he has shown oz rugby

There is another player that crosses all the same boxes yet just made it into the extra 6, but has less game time. Anyone tell me the logic of Deans picking one but not the other?

 

[qwerty51]

Beale doesn't tick the first 3.

 

[jimmydubs]

I'd rather have a genuine lock out there. Mowen and Palu can manage 80, we shouldn't be preparing for them to come off.

Kimlin's hands worry me in the last couple mins of the game.

Palu can manage 80? Did we get in a time machine and go back a bunch of years?

 

[qwerty51]

Wallabies 31 Man Squad

 

[Pfitzy]

So you think Deans and Cooper have personal issues, but you don't hold Cooper responsible. Despite the fact that Cooper fired the first shot? If he was my employee he'd have a written warning or severance, not a fat new contract; though that is a whole other topic about politics.

Second the limited risk averse game plan

It is called Test Rugby. You get limited opportunities, and to beat teams like the All Blacks you need everyone up to scratch on the day. History has shown it against them every time we've beaten them - either we've had vastly superior personnel (a climate we haven't experienced for over ten years) or we've made far less mistakes than them.

But I tell you what the Reds could have done to increase their chances of winning that game: make less stupid offloads behind the advantage line, give away less stupid penalties, and kick the ball more out if the danger zone. I saw Cooper, Tapuai and Fainga'a all make poor decisions with the ball in their own half, that supposedly players of their experience shouldn't make.

Let me put this to you: with Cooper on the team, what would YOU have done differently to beat Ireland and the All Blacks at RWC2011? And the Bledisloe/RC games that Cooper is supposedly capable of winning under another coach?

Why didn't the Reds win S15 in 2012 if Cooper is the man? Why couldn't they beat the Force this year? Or the Brumbies? He's working with McKenzie there - so if he's the second coming, where are the results?

You're basically calling Deans a liar. Well, he's still in the job somehow, so I guess everyone in the ARU is a liar. It was a fucking mistake to sign him up again before RWC 2011 for sure, but we've had worse coaches lately (Knuckles, Eddie Jones) and I'm not sure their game plans were vastly different.

 

[Pfitzy]

So cooper didn't get picked because:

- he isn't physical enough
- he isn't direct enough
- he makes too many errors
- and likely due to the lack of respect he has shown oz rugby

There is another player that crosses all the same boxes yet just made it into the extra 6, but has less game time. Anyone tell me the logic of Deans picking one but not the other?

If you're talking about Beale - it is simply that he has the cred at Test level. He clearly gives Deans something (besides covering a few positions) that Quade does not.

For whoever used Beale's alcohol problem above as an example of why he shouldn't be picked: toxic laptop environment. FFS.

 

[gel]

Beale doesn't tick the first 3.

Correction. He doesn't tick the first two. Punching your captain or any other member of the public is VERY direct in the most physical manner possible.

He makes mistakes. A lot.

 

[Gnostic]

Pftizy - Deans fired the first shot publicly bagging the player after the RWC game and then again a bit later on.

1)As for the game plan, there are many ways of playing the game. This one is perhaps the worst I have ever had the misfortune to witness up til now. It may well be better this year and I certainly hope so. It isn't called test Rugby at all, that is a total cop out.

2)You have a very unrealistic view of the Reds game. If the offloads were not made by the Reds they would have been tackled behind the gain line and they did not have the pack to compete. SO they moved the point of contact and got out of trouble more often than not.

3)To start with Elsom and Vickerman wouldn't have been in the side neither were fit. Second don't select a running/passing 10 who is known to be average on defence to play a narrow kick and defend game plan.

4) AH probably because he spent most of it injured along with Horwill and a few others. It is a team game after all.

5)Are you serious in suggesting that you can't see the differences in the set up between Connolly and Jones? Seriously? If you can't see the differences between those two overriding ethos there is no use in attempting to go further.

 

[Pfitzy]

5)Are you serious in suggesting that you can't see the differences in the set up between Connolly and Jones? Seriously? If you can't see the differences between those two overriding ethos there is no use in attempting to go further.

Very similar - they all selected players who the public said didn't deserve it, and we saw all our success up to 2001 eroded to nothing as we came to terms with the fact we'd just had a golden age end on us in terms of talent.

* Eddie Jones picking Gregan over Whitaker, and Knuckles picking any prop ahead of Ben Robinson, being examples. The difference is, I was right.

Provide quotes for Deans' criticism BTW -that is so long ago I'd forgotten

 

[Garryowen]

So cooper didn't get picked because:

- he isn't physical enough
- he isn't direct enough
- he makes too many errors
- and likely due to the lack of respect he has shown oz rugby

There is another player that crosses all the same boxes yet just made it into the extra 6, but has less game time. Anyone tell me the logic of Deans picking one but not the other?

Beale makes errors, but he has no problems going into contact.

I may be overly optimistic, but I've got a feeling that a booze-free Beale is going to be one of the shining lights for the wallabies during the test series. His brief cameo for the Rebels was encouraging.

 

[vidiot]

Nice diatribe. I'm not so devout in my reds worship that I feel the need to pipe up that often, and the stupid part is that I intrinsically agree with some of your argument, but

But I tell you what the Reds could have done to increase their chances of winning that game: make less stupid offloads behind the advantage line, give away less stupid penalties, and kick the ball more out if the danger zone. I saw Cooper, Tapuai and Fainga'a all make poor decisions with the ball in their own half, that supposedly players of their experience shouldn't make.

Wow. Getting over the advantage line and then offloading is all well and good when you can. Advice like giving away less penalties is very useful, I'm sure Cooper and McKenzie would have appreciated it earlier. And the tactic of running the ball out of the danger zone, at least initially, actually worked for them. Getting wide got them opportunities.

Let me put this to you: with Cooper on the team, what would YOU have done differently to beat Ireland and the All Blacks at RWC2011? And the Bledisloe/RC games that Cooper is supposedly capable of winning under another coach?

Ireland? Replace Pocock, and separate ball-carriers like McCabe from O'Brien and co and the tackle to Maul tactic. Try to ensure the pack survived occasional scrums rather than giving away half a dozen penalties.

ABs? Dunno. Cooper looks worst against the ABs. But we have only beaten them in the recent past with Cooper. Kiwis are so busy proving he is crap that there is opportunity for the others.

Why didn't the Reds win S15 in 2012 if Cooper is the man? Why couldn't they beat the Force this year? Or the Brumbies? He's working with McKenzie there - so if he's the second coming, where are the results?

Cooper was broken in 2012. Cooper cannot beat teams alone. The Brumbies are a good side. Cooper's results have been published on this site, they support his selection - the wallabies win more with him. The reds win more with him than without him.

 

[fatprop]

So this Beale guy is now crap?

So this Beale guy is now a error ridden, soft cock?

This Beale wasn't the starting 10 last year?

This Beale wasn't judged near best 15 in the world not too long ago?

This thread is getting stupid