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Wallabies 2025

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Having Les really kick on with the Reds and build something there would be better for Australian rugby as a whole than have him leave part way to plug a whole Joe leaves now.

I think there is definitely a spot for Les to be a quasi assistant coach this year and going forward to help make that leap easier.

But, I think we need all states really performing at a high level after we lost the Rebels. Losing Les next year would be a step backwards for Australian rugby.
 

Yoda

Cyril Towers (30)
I‘m guessing Joe is going to tell the team at the Wallaby Camp this week of his plans first… that’s what a good leader would do. So we will know by the weekend?
 

TSR

Andrew Slack (58)
If memory serves me correctly Kiss was only available because London Irish fell over. I think he even said something along the lines that coming back home wasn’t otherwise in his plans.
 

Spamnoodle

Larry Dwyer (12)
But they don’t know Schmidt is off, in fact they’re hoping he isn’t. I guess that’s my point

Kiss was only recruited after Thorn announced he was stepping back and Reds invited applicants. Same as Virgin, ANZ who recruited externally.

Thorne also made the decision early enough for a more thorough process to take place.
 

Spamnoodle

Larry Dwyer (12)
Would be very happy for Dan McKellar to be a one season Waratah coach and take the national reins if it came to it.
He was pretty much the anointed one pre the Jones abomination
 

Ignoto

Peter Sullivan (51)
Dan is tip toeing a line of having his reputation as a coach go down a path that is difficult to come back from.

His stint with the Wallabies under Rennie produced a poor Wallabies set of results and he was ousted in the UK because of another set of poor results.

He needs to have this Tahs team singing for a number of years before he gets another shot at the Wallabies.
 

Spamnoodle

Larry Dwyer (12)
Dan is tip toeing a line of having his reputation as a coach go down a path that is difficult to come back from.

His stint with the Wallabies under Rennie produced a poor Wallabies set of results and he was ousted in the UK because of another set of poor results.

He needs to have this Tahs team singing for a number of years before he gets another shot at the Wallabies.


All fair points. But his Wallaby stint as co coach is hard to quantify his role in the results.
His UK stint is a strange one to, he wasn't given a great deal time to make a mark.
He's been gifted a good roster at NSW, I guess we'll see.
 
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The Ghost of Raelene

David Codey (61)
Why is Larkham not getting much love from those in here for the job if we are talking guys like Les and DM?

I really don't know who is the best option if they went with a currently local candidate.

Les is doing good things with the Reds, has international experience at all levels but also won nothing besides a 2nd tier comp.
Larkham has the Brumbies continually Aus best side. Has been around international coaching as an assistant.
DM has a good record with the Brumbies. International experience is light but if he turns the Tahs in somewhat of a competitive steady organisation he will get a push if it hasn't killed him in the process.

We're light on for winning coaches. Hard metric as you get limited chances to win comps and it takes some luck along the way as well as the organisation you lead being in the right place themselves but it is a tricky spot RA will find themselves.

The other name besides Cheika that will get rolled out will be Jake White. I assumed he was old af but he's only 61. Kiss is 60 and Schmidt 59... As boring as he can be, we could do a lot worse.
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
Why is Larkham not getting much love from those in here for the job if we are talking guys like Les and DM?
Until these recent pages I would've said Larkham has had a more mentions then McKellar, certainly in the media where it has been reported as Les Kiss first then Larkham.

Why is Les Kiss being talked about as the front runner here? First and foremost because that's the story running across the rugby media. The main reason he stands out is that he's seen as a "continuity candidate" with a pretty solid history working well with Schmidt, a similar coaching style, and by all accounts they continue to have a good working relationship (useful if there is a way to keep Schmidt as a DoR or senior assistant). Beyond that he's far and away the most experienced of the three local options.

I do agree there's fuck all in it though, none of the 3 have out and out success to separate them from the others, and there a varying levels of disruption to moving them into the top role (though probably the least for Larkham leaving the Brumbies).

The other name besides Cheika that will get rolled out will be Jake White. I assumed he was old af but he's only 61. Kiss is 60 and Schmidt 59... As boring as he can be, we could do a lot worse.
I think they'll probably avoid someone as seperate from the Australian environment as White at this stage. Aside from any "marketability" issues they might be worried about going into a home world cup (and like it or not this would be a factor), they'll be looking for someone with a solid enough base in the game here to hit the ground running, and hopefully stick around a while. Kiwi coaches in New Zealand (like Vern Cotter) just sneak in on this test for mine, though it probably makes it a bridge too far for other left field candidates like Lancaster, Gatland or Meyer. O'Gara is the only one who might buck that if he's interested, given the success he's coming in off (and his relationship with Skelton wouldn't hurt), but I doubt he wants it.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
It would classic RA, if they haven't already got a replacement lined up. - JS's contract was for 2 years so its their duty of diligence to have someone ready to go. And....if it is to be Kiss or Bernie a replacement for them too

You do understand that they now have more than 6 months to hire that next coach right?

Why would they have someone lined up already for a job that they ideally wanted Schmidt to remain in? They have ample time to conduct a thorough recruitment process.
 

Wilson

Phil Kearns (64)
You do understand that they now have more than 6 months to hire that next coach right?

Why would they have someone lined up already for a job that they ideally wanted Schmidt to remain in? They have ample time to conduct a thorough recruitment process.
Yeah, if Schmidt does leave this is set to be the best managed change over in well over a decade, probably since Eddie Jones' first stint but at least since Link was appointed at the same point 12 years ago. That may not be saying a lot given our recent history, but it represents a pretty solid step forward at a management level.
 

JRugby2

Bob Loudon (25)
Genuine question though how do you lineup the next coach given the preference is to retain Schmidt and that these other suitably credential coaches that RA would like to sign are currently employed elsewhere.

Reality is Australia doesn’t have a coaching development pathway so when it comes time for a new Test coach, we’re at the mercy of marketing forces globally.. IMO
I'd employ an assistant that is earmarked to be the next head coach. For argument sake - say it's Les, and assume that they figure out a way to deal with the dual roles.

- Les comes in as assistant, Schmidt is head coach until 2027
- Les learns the structure that Schmidt wants to play so he is across the development plans, game plans etc during major tournaments
- Schmidt given leave during July and November tours that don't lead into headline events and Les is the stand in head coach to gain exposure at that level (eg: you'd want Schmidt in charge for all of 2027, but Les could take over the November tests in Europe for 2025 and 2026)
- During that time Schmidt can be an advisor from his home in NZ.
 

upthereds#!

Peter Johnson (47)
I'd employ an assistant that is earmarked to be the next head coach. For argument sake - say it's Les, and assume that they figure out a way to deal with the dual roles.

- Les comes in as assistant, Schmidt is head coach until 2027
- Les learns the structure that Schmidt wants to play so he is across the development plans, game plans etc during major tournaments
- Schmidt given leave during July and November tours that don't lead into headline events and Les is the stand in head coach to gain exposure at that level (eg: you'd want Schmidt in charge for all of 2027, but Les could take over the November tests in Europe for 2025 and 2026)
- During that time Schmidt can be an advisor from his home in NZ.

Tagging an assistant as the next head coach didn't work well for Larkham or McKellar.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I'd employ an assistant that is earmarked to be the next head coach. For argument sake - say it's Les, and assume that they figure out a way to deal with the dual roles.

- Les comes in as assistant, Schmidt is head coach until 2027
- Les learns the structure that Schmidt wants to play so he is across the development plans, game plans etc during major tournaments
- Schmidt given leave during July and November tours that don't lead into headline events and Les is the stand in head coach to gain exposure at that level (eg: you'd want Schmidt in charge for all of 2027, but Les could take over the November tests in Europe for 2025 and 2026)
- During that time Schmidt can be an advisor from his home in NZ.

This sort of succession plan is difficult though and potentially you end up appointing someone who isn't the best candidate.

It can work if what you're trying to do is replicate exactly the systems the current HC is implementing. What happens if Kiss' desired structure and the assistants he ends up hiring aren't suited to doing that? You have him running a system that isn't his and might not suit his style.

Likewise, being an assistant coach isn't the same as being the head coach just with less of the same responsibilities. Are you taking away valuable experience being a head coach of a Super Rugby side that would be superior preparation for being the HC of the Wallabies than being the assistant coach of the Wallabies?

If you get part way through the process and decide Kiss is no longer the best person for the HC role because other people have become available you burn a lot of currency with not just Kiss but all your coaches by effectively reneging on a promise.

Personally I think the best option is to hire the best person you can at the time you need to hire them and let them assemble their assistants at that time.
 

JRugby2

Bob Loudon (25)
This sort of succession plan is difficult though and potentially you end up appointing someone who isn't the best candidate.

It can work if what you're trying to do is replicate exactly the systems the current HC is implementing. What happens if Kiss' desired structure and the assistants he ends up hiring aren't suited to doing that? You have him running a system that isn't his and might not suit his style.

Likewise, being an assistant coach isn't the same as being the head coach just with less of the same responsibilities. Are you taking away valuable experience being a head coach of a Super Rugby side that would be superior preparation for being the HC of the Wallabies than being the assistant coach of the Wallabies?

If you get part way through the process and decide Kiss is no longer the best person for the HC role because other people have become available you burn a lot of currency with not just Kiss but all your coaches by effectively reneging on a promise.

Personally I think the best option is to hire the best person you can at the time you need to hire them and let them assemble their assistants at that time.
Whether it's Les Kiss or someone else is really not the point I was trying to make - it could be someone from inside or outside a Super Rugby environment currently, but I think the benefit you get is stability in succession. Again it is subjective - but provided the cornerstone of that succession is continuation of team success, then I think it's reasonable to argue that promoting from within would land you with the best candidate anyway.

Definitely agree with your assessment of the risk - especially is success doesn't come - but it's not like hiring the best candidate at the time is risk free either if the 'bit' that made them the best candidate doesn't translate to success in the Wallabies environment (a la Rennie). But this is something that has worked for other teams and not something the Wallabies have ever really explored as we've bounced from one coach implosion to the next despite hiring the "best candidate".

Hiring the best person you can when you need to is obviously highly subjective, and in the past 15 years has rarely produced success for us - whereas if (and a big if) we were to continue to improve under Schmidt for the next couple of years - why wouldn't we want to continue on that trajectory with someone who has familiarity with the system, the players and direction the team has been heading.

My case study for this is (shocker) the All Blacks. They went from Henry (Ast. Hansen), to Hansen (Ast. Foster), to Foster - and say all you like about Fozzie relative to his predecessors, but what I would give for a Wallabies coach to have a 70% win record. I don't necessarily think it automatically means that the Wallabies become one dimensional for a decade, or that there is no evolution in the team either.
 
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Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Calling the brumbies the best Australian side when they haven't won the competition in over 20 years is a bit rich. The best gimp is still a gimp.
Schmidt and crew have proven that the players were never the problem and it was coaching all along.
Picking a mediocre coach will have us back producing mediocre results.
 
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The Ghost of Raelene

David Codey (61)
Who is the best Australian side then?

Brumbies have by far been the strongest performer of all Australian sides for a decade. Look at any Super Rugby table. Tahs are the last Aus side to win the bastard and they certainly aren't it.

Calling the brumbies the best Australian side when they haven't won the competition in over 20 years is a bit rich. The best gimp is still a gimp.
Schmidt and crew have proven that the players were never the problem and it was coaching all along.
Picking a mediocre coach will have us back producing mediocre results.
This right here is bang on.
 

Hogan

Herbert Moran (7)
Now that McLennan has moved on, RA could do a lot worse than seeking out Rennie with a view to him returning to finish off the job that he was unable to complete.
Unlikely that he would accept but no harm in enquiring. The players would certainly be pleased to have him back.
 
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