Wallabies 2024

[Slim 293]

Have we? Ireland only have 4 pro teams, Wales only have 4, Scotland only have 2, Italy only have 2

Yet none of them seem to have the problem of players they don’t really rate becoming world class somewhere else

It probably has to do with...

... an incredibly complex, layered problem that can't be solved simply or solely blamed on a single failing, person or group.

 

[Tomthumb]

It probably has to do with...

So we just shouldn’t bother discussing it? Just put our heads in the sand and look forward to another all NZ super Rugby final

Obviously the problem isn’t simple, but that doesn’t mean it’s not solvable

 

[Slim 293]

So we just shouldn’t bother discussing it? Just put our heads in the sand and look forward to another all NZ super Rugby final

Obviously the problem isn’t simple, but that doesn’t mean it’s not solvable

I don't think anyone is suggesting we shouldn't discuss it, considering the literal forum...

 

[stillmissit]

So we've established that it's an incredibly complex, layered problem that can't be solved simply or solely blamed on a single failing, person or group?

Success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan.........

 

[Adam84]

Such as?

Here's a handful, limited to players who actually played Super Rugby or Australian 7s before departing overseas and were/are still playing up until last couple of seasons: --Including players who didn't crack Super Rugby and went straight from club is took difficult--

Guy Millar, Spence Jeans, Les Maskin, Tim Metcher, Dave Lolohea, Hugh Roach, Pheonix Battye, Alex Toolis, Michael Stolberg, Sam Jeffries, Maclean Jones, Ben Meehan, De Wet Roos, Nic Stirzaker, Mack Mason, Chris Talakai, Kimami Situati, Tom Ross, Joe Powell, Alex Masibaka, Efi Ma'afu, Adam Ready, Feau Fotuakai, Dane Zander, Ryan McCauley, Isi Naisarani, Cameron Orr, Ray Nu'u, Stacey Ili, Ola Tauelangi, Rodney Iona, Michael McDonald, Tom Nowlan, Geoff Cridge, Tevita Kuridrani, Theo Strang, Andrew Tuala, Joe Cotton, Jack Whetton

No disrespect is intended for those players, but there are just examples of traffic heading over, not all of them improving infinitely in these environments.

 

[LeCheese]

Have we? Ireland only have 4 pro teams, Wales only have 4, Scotland only have 2, Italy only have 2

Yet none of them seem to have the problem of players they don’t really rate becoming world class somewhere else

By way of comparison, Ireland and Wales have the same number of pro clubs as we now do, yet - according to a quick Google for numbers - they have about half the registered adult rugby players. Similarly it appears Scotland only have ~10k registered adult players and Italy ~16k, compared to our ~40k.

Obviously there's more to it, but it's a fair bit easier to not let anyone go when your talent pool is considerably smaller.

 

[JRugby2]

Have we? Ireland only have 4 pro teams, Wales only have 4, Scotland only have 2, Italy only have 2

Yet none of them seem to have the problem of players they don’t really rate becoming world class somewhere else

Well maybe just some bullet points:
- There is collectively more opportunities in those countries then there are in Australia - and while I'm not sure about Ireland, the rest of them allow their players to be picked from anywhere.
- Those countries are all in the same competition too and are as far away from each other as Brisbane is to Perth - making it much easier to share players and manage development.
- Quite often you hear of players from those countries with feet in other camps too - Gus Warr for example, Steven Varney is another, Louis Lynagh. There are definitely different scales to the issue - but it's overly simplistic (if not blatantly untrue) to say they don't have the same problems.

 

[Dctarget]

Having players like Proctor, Tua, Tomkinson hurt us. Short term gain for long term pain. Tua might've been better than Mosese at the time but because half of available centre positions were taken up by foreigners, we've lost him and his brother. How would Sione have gone if he were offered the Rebels or Brumbies starting centre position.

 

[Adam84]

So we've established that it's an incredibly complex, layered problem that can't be solved simply or solely blamed on a single failing, person or group?

I mean, we can seek to blame absolutely but the first part of this comment is 100% accurate

 

[Strewthcobber]

Have we? Ireland only have 4 pro teams, Wales only have 4, Scotland only have 2, Italy only have 2

Yet none of them seem to have the problem of players they don’t really rate becoming world class somewhere else

Scotland's Ben Healy.

 

[stillmissit]

I mean, we can seek to blame absolutely but the first part of this comment is 100% accurate

Yet others seem to pick up our 'poor' talent and make something of them we couldn't.
PS thanks for the listing of player OS found it interesting.

 

[stillmissit]

I am disappointed that Stan is not showing the Reds v Japanese Wild knights on Mon 4th Nov. 7 of the players will be in the full squad.

 

[JRugby2]

This is absolutely true.

I don't think there's a reasonable argument that we're picking the wrong players though.

No one would suggest the Brumbies should select Angus Staniforth at fullback over Tom Wright because there's a risk Staniforth might head overseas if he doesn't get a decent amount of playing time in the next year or so.

In 2019 when Tuipulotu left at the end of the season, the Rebels had Quade at 10 and To'omua, Hodge, Meakes as centre options.

At the time I don't think anyone is picking him over those three (maybe Meakes)

 

[Wallaby Man]

Here's a handful, limited to players who actually played Super Rugby or Australian 7s before departing overseas and were/are still playing up until last couple of seasons: --Including players who didn't crack Super Rugby and went straight from club is took difficult--

Guy Millar, Spence Jeans, Les Maskin, Tim Metcher, Dave Lolohea, Hugh Roach, Pheonix Battye, Alex Toolis, Michael Stolberg, Sam Jeffries, Maclean Jones, Ben Meehan, De Wet Roos, Nic Stirzaker, Mack Mason, Chris Talakai, Kimami Situati, Tom Ross, Joe Powell, Alex Masibaka, Efi Ma'afu, Adam Ready, Feau Fotuakai, Dane Zander, Ryan McCauley, Isi Naisarani, Cameron Orr, Ray Nu'u, Stacey Ili, Ola Tauelangi, Rodney Iona, Michael McDonald, Tom Nowlan, Geoff Cridge, Tevita Kuridrani, Theo Strang, Andrew Tuala, Joe Cotton, Jack Whetton

No disrespect is intended for those players, but there are just examples of traffic heading over, not all of them improving infinitely in these environments.

Most these guys play in essentially semi professional MLR, which is basically a group of guys discarded by all major leagues as not good enough.

 

[Tomthumb]

Here's a handful, limited to players who actually played Super Rugby or Australian 7s before departing overseas and were/are still playing up until last couple of seasons: --Including players who didn't crack Super Rugby and went straight from club is took difficult--

Guy Millar, Spence Jeans, Les Maskin, Tim Metcher, Dave Lolohea, Hugh Roach, Pheonix Battye, Alex Toolis, Michael Stolberg, Sam Jeffries, Maclean Jones, Ben Meehan, De Wet Roos, Nic Stirzaker, Mack Mason, Chris Talakai, Kimami Situati, Tom Ross, Joe Powell, Alex Masibaka, Efi Ma'afu, Adam Ready, Feau Fotuakai, Dane Zander, Ryan McCauley, Isi Naisarani, Cameron Orr, Ray Nu'u, Stacey Ili, Ola Tauelangi, Rodney Iona, Michael McDonald, Tom Nowlan, Geoff Cridge, Tevita Kuridrani, Theo Strang, Andrew Tuala, Joe Cotton, Jack Whetton

No disrespect is intended for those players, but there are just examples of traffic heading over, not all of them improving infinitely in these environments.

Fair enough

 

[Dctarget]

In 2019 when Tuipulotu left at the end of the season, the Rebels had Quade at 10 and To'omua, Hodge, Meakes as centre options.

At the time I don't think anyone is picking him over those three (maybe Meakes)

Brumbies had Solomone Kata and Waratahs had Tepai Moeroa.

 

[Tomthumb]

By way of comparison, Ireland and Wales have the same number of pro clubs as we now do, yet - according to a quick Google for numbers - they have about half the registered adult rugby players. Similarly it appears Scotland only have ~10k registered adult players and Italy ~16k, compared to our ~40k.

Obviously there's more to it, but it's a fair bit easier to not let anyone go when your talent pool is considerably smaller.

It's a bit depressing that we have 30,000 more players than Scotland and they are still better than us

I think we can all agree that we don't seem to maximize all our players talent

 

[Slim 293]

Brumbies had Solomone Kata and Waratahs had Tepai Moeroa.

Kata didn't join the Brumbies until 2020, and was really only used off the bench as a wing...

 

[JRugby2]

Brumbies had Solomone Kata and Waratahs had Tepai Moeroa.

In fairness to the Tahs - Tepai left rugby and came back highly rated. I remember his schoolboy highlights doing the rounds and him at the time being very sought after, similar to Su'aalii

But otherwise - this is irrelevant as RA is/ wasn't centralised in the sense that we can player share between the clubs. Besides - I don't remember the 2019 season all that well but from what I do, nothing about tuipolotu then tells me he would have beaten either of those 2 to the jersey. He's gone to Scotland, played more high level rugby and got better.

Who to say it's got anymore to do with their system rather than just getting more time in the saddle?

 

[LeCheese]

It's a bit depressing that we have 30,000 more players than Scotland and they are still better than us

I think we can all agree that we don't seem to maximize all our players talent

Not a novel comment from me, but there's also the fact that a nation like Scotland, and the others you mentioned, aren't having to split their naturally gifted athletes (who would likely excel in any sport) between four footy codes, two of which require very similar talents.