Wallabies 2024

[Tomthumb]

Edinburgh?

Yes, all the setups over there are more organized and professional than over here. There is no way clubs up there would let guys like Tupou eat their way through a season without any repercussions

 

[Strewthcobber]

If course it's not talent ID. All these guys are pro players. They are in the system.

What we actually have a problem with is bigger offers coming in from OS for guys that our teams can't afford to pay as 1st teamers, combined with players being reluctant to move interstate, and teams not wanting to sign interstate guys who are going to leave after a couple of years.

 

[JRugby2]

Might depend who they're lining up to replace the rebels in the midweek game - a chance to play the lions would be a very big carrot for most sides

I think it was very much a warm up game seperate to the lions - similar to how South Africa played Georgia before their tour.

My guess is it’ll be one of the Pacific teams/ Japan if anyone

 

[cyclopath]

They are just 2 more examples of players getting infinitely better once they leave Australia and join actual professional environments with expectation

I keep hearing "we don't have the cattle", yet our cattle seem to be pretty valued around the world

 

[Tomthumb]

View attachment 20695

Amazing that a hyperbolic comment get taken more seriously than a guy we thought was no good becoming a world class Centre while we are stuck recalling the ghost of Samu Kerevi

 

[cyclopath]

Amazing that a hyperbolic comment get taken more seriously than a guy we thought was no good becoming a world class Centre while we are stuck recalling the ghost of Samu Kerevi

It was a joke, misery-guts.

 

[Brumby Runner]

If course it's not talent ID. All these guys are pro players. They are in the system.

What we actually have a problem with is bigger offers coming in from OS for guys that our teams can't afford to pay as 1st teamers, combined with players being reluctant to move interstate, and teams not wanting to sign interstate guys who are going to leave after a couple of years.

They are pro players and they are in the system, but some of them are not getting the game time they would be after as a pro player. Moese is an example. There are others, including a handful I am aware of in the Brumbies present roster. Pro players want and need to be playing at the pro level. The current Super Rugby competition along with an absent development program like the NRC just don't give teams enough games to ensure everyone on the roster gets an opportunity to play. I think this is a big factor in the loss of players to overseas.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Yes, all the setups over there are more organized and professional than over here. There is no way clubs up there would let guys like Tupou eat their way through a season without any repercussions

Two weeks ago, Edinburgh lost the first half against the Lions 48-0

 

[Highlander35]

We've named 6 centers, plus Tom Jordan (primarily plays fly half for Glasgow, likely better suited to 12 or 15 at International level), listed another pure center (Cam Redpath), and a winger who can play center (Kyle Steyn) as unavailable due to injury. Mo is there to be cap tied, not because he's realistically displacing the 2 or 3 incumbents (minimum( ahead of him already.

Slightly funny about Sione as out and out captain: I'm a big Rory Darge fan and at 24, turning 25 in February, felt he was the obvious choice for a long term captain. Toonie obviously sees his backrow being far less cut and dry than his center choices though, which I can't blame him for: having both Glasgow and Edinburgh seem to have an substantial stock of options before you even consider the likes of Andy Christie and Josh Bayliss in the Prem.

I would be surprised if you don't see something resembling the full strength side turn up against the canary mob. The week before is Portugal, so the big boys should have been rotated, the A Fixture against Chile is the same week as this fixture, so there's not the same need to blood new faces, and you're the last opponent of the window, so there's not the need to leave anything in the tank.

 

[Tomthumb]

Two weeks ago, Edinburgh lost the first half against the Lions 48-0

And the week after that they beat the Stormers 48-7

 

[Derpus]

Yeah seems more likely that we just don't have the cash or games to retain the next tier of players. Players who could be great but aren't an obvious selection choice yet and have nowhere local to go to demonstrate their ability and can double or triple their salary by going to Japan or Europe.

Maybe if we had more teams/games and cash...

 

[Adam84]

Yes, all the setups over there are more organized and professional than over here. There is no way clubs up there would let guys like Tupou eat their way through a season without any repercussions

As someone with work connections and close colleagues/friends working in some of these clubs and in Australia, I can tell you this is absolutely not the case. There are some absolute basketcases in all the leagues over there (URC, Premiership Rugby and Top 14), and some are incredibly professional.

There are certainly several clubs that are more organized and professional than Australian Super Rugby clubs to varying degrees; some have far better pathways, and some simply have bigger budgets, salary caps, and high-performance programs. I'd say broadly though, there are equally as many clubs that sit below Australian Super Rugby teams across a number of 'professionalism and organisational' metrics, although that in itself can mean a lot of things also.

 

[stillmissit]

Surely it's not a failure of identification. You can't call yourself a scout if you don't properly investigate the talents of Mosese after what happened to Sione.

If you can't see the lack of talent ID and the ability to bring it to a senior level then it must be magic that's transforming them. I've never met a talent scout here, NZ had loads of them in the 70's don't know about these days. Then what are we paying our coaches for if they can't see the talent?
Maybe the coaches are thinking like many here. Too Young! Not experienced enough! - Phil Kearns would never have got a run and Eddie would have been the Aus hooker.

 

[Tomthumb]

As someone with work connections and close colleagues/friends working in some of these clubs and in Australia, I can tell you this is absolutely not the case. There are some absolute basketcases in all the leagues over there (URC, Premiership Rugby and Top 14), and some are incredibly professional.

There are certainly several clubs that are more organized and professional than Australian Super Rugby clubs to varying degrees; some have far better pathways, and some simply have bigger budgets, salary caps, and high-performance programs. I'd say broadly though, there are equally as many clubs that sit below Australian Super Rugby teams across a number of 'professionalism and organisational' metrics, although that in itself can mean a lot of things also.

Fair enough, but it certainly feels like these teams over there get far more out of Aussie players than we do over here. So it's either poor talent ID or poor coaching, but either way it's not a good look for Aussie Rugby when this consistently happens

 

[Braveheart81]

Moese looked like a future star in a trial match down here against a Brumbies selection a couple of years ago. Absolutely bossed the backline. The fact he couldn't get game time at the Tahs and wasn't picked up by any of the other provinces speaks volumes, to me at least, about the poor talent identification here in this country. He will likely do the same as his brother and represent Scotland at the very highest levels in short time. Echoes of Mack Hanson, also.

He's fine. He didn't play much Super Rugby because he was stuck behind Wallbies Izaia Perese and Lalakai Foketi as well as Joey Walton at times (who is in the Australia XV squad). It wasn't like he looked like the best option when he did play.

Harry Wilson also left to seek more opportunity overseas.

The Tahs brought back Henry O'Donnell who looks like a strong emerging talent.

I don't think it's poor talent identification. It's largely about the number of opportunities available. I'm not sure who 13 will be at the Force in 2025 but realistically Tuipulotu still wouldn't be a starter at any Australian team.

You also have to consider that he wanted to take the opportunity in Scotland. The assumption that the other Australian teams could have "picked him up" doesn't bare out in reality. Like Mack Hansen this wasn't a player seeking to stay in Australia and looking for any offer. There was a good offer overseas and realistically the other Australian sides would need to offer more money and opportunity to try and beat it.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you can't see the lack of talent ID and the ability to bring it to a senior level then it must be magic that's transforming them. I've never met a talent scout here, NZ had loads of them in the 70's don't know about these days. Then what are we paying our coaches for if they can't see the talent?
Maybe the coaches are thinking like many here. Too Young! Not experienced enough! - Phil Kearns would never have got a run and Eddie would have been the Aus hooker.

There's no lack of talent identification. Tuipulotu was part of the Rebels academy as a teenager and a full time professional from the age of 21 with the Waratahs. Everyone knew who he was.

The Phil Kearns story is also complete revisionism. The second grade Randwick straight into the Wallabies is a myth. He was already the first choice hooker for NSW.

 

[Strewthcobber]

You also have to consider that he wanted to take the opportunity in Scotland. The assumption that the other Australian teams could have "picked him up" doesn't bare out in reality. Like Mack Hansen this wasn't a player seeking to stay in Australia and looking for any offer. There was a good offer overseas and realistically the other Australian sides would need to offer more money and opportunity to try and beat it.

To add to this, for Tuipolutu the younger, it was well known that he had substantial OS offers, which he was pretty likely to take. MT had an offer in 2023, after ACL and other injuries all through the previous years.

If you are a Super Rugby coach, knowing he's probably going to Scotland at some point soon, why would you pay and play him? He's almost certainly going to go before you get a payoff

Indeed, Scottish Rugby put a hefty contract offer before Tuipulotu a year ago and dangled the carrot of playing for his brother’s Warriors. Tuipulotu turned it down. He spoke about his love for the Waratahs franchise and his dream of becoming a Wallaby. What has changed in the twelve months since? And why, at a tantalising time for the Australian game, with Joe Schmidt’s new broom sweeping away the wreckage left by Eddie Jones, a British and Irish Lions tour next year and a home World Cup in 2027, would a promising player choose to leave home?

“I understand where people are coming from,” Tuipulotu says. “I was pretty close last year to coming over, I wanted to be closer to my brother and we always had that dream of playing together.

 

[Tomthumb]

There's no lack of talent identification. Tuipulotu was part of the Rebels academy as a teenager and a full time professional from the age of 21 with the Waratahs. Everyone knew who he was.

The Phil Kearns story is also complete revisionism. The second grade Randwick straight into the Wallabies is a myth. He was already the first choice hooker for NSW.

The problem isn't that don't know about these guys, the problem is they don't know how to develop them correctly

 

[Braveheart81]

They are pro players and they are in the system, but some of them are not getting the game time they would be after as a pro player. Moese is an example. There are others, including a handful I am aware of in the Brumbies present roster. Pro players want and need to be playing at the pro level. The current Super Rugby competition along with an absent development program like the NRC just don't give teams enough games to ensure everyone on the roster gets an opportunity to play. I think this is a big factor in the loss of players to overseas.

This is absolutely true.

I don't think there's a reasonable argument that we're picking the wrong players though.

No one would suggest the Brumbies should select Angus Staniforth at fullback over Tom Wright because there's a risk Staniforth might head overseas if he doesn't get a decent amount of playing time in the next year or so.

 

[Tomthumb]

This is absolutely true.

I don't think there's a reasonable argument that we're picking the wrong players though.

No one would suggest the Brumbies should select Angus Staniforth at fullback over Tom Wright because there's a risk Staniforth might head overseas if he doesn't get a decent amount of playing time in the next year or so.

Fine, then can we please stop saying "we just don't have the cattle" then?

We cant simultaneously not have enough good players while also having too many good players to keep them all