Too much youth over experience?

[fatprop]

I could understand the concerns for change more if there was great success before Deans started, but there wasn't.

I honestly think aus rugby will be better for the Deans experience. His work ethic and skills expectations can only make the team and Aus rugby better.

But can we win the next RWC, I doubt it, our engine room lacks too much. I expect we will go out in the semis, a final birth would be a bonus.

 

[waratahjesus]

my problem isnt with the forwards, we have won games with a lesser pack, our advantage has always been in the backs and dare i say it, the league influence on australian rugby has been a positive, we changed the way the world defended when we won in 99 by adopting a more league style defence, we have had league defensive coahes come through the ranks and it has changed the game globally.

the problem is the skill set of our backline, in the past if we got close to equal ball larkham and co would kill it, stirlo would be all over them out wide and we would look like a million bucks, now we just act surprised if we can pass the ball past two players, something isnt right, and we need specialist coaches to fix it

 

[fatprop]

You nailed it "in the past if we got close to equal ball Larkham and co would kill it", no Larkham has meant we aren't as good.

 

[RugbyReg]

I am too lazy to go and find out how many Wallabies were introduced by Macqueen, Jones and Connolly and calculate their average annual turnover. Maybe when I am very bored I will look it up.

Wallaby debuts.

Rod McQueen:

1997 - 1 debutant (Flatley) in 4 tests
1998 - 8 (Bowman, Paul, Grey, Panaho, Whitaker, Edmonds, Latham, Noriega) in 13
1999 - 7 (Spooner, Williams, Strauss, Connors, Kafer, Staniforth, Moore) in 13
2000 - 8 (Mortlock, Dyson, Cordingly, Lyons, Jacques, Walker, G Smith, Young, Waugh) in 10
2001 - 4 (Stiles, Darwin, Cannon, Harrison) in 3

28 in 43 tests = ave of 0.651 per test

Eddie Jones:

2001 - 2 (G Bond, S Kefu) debutants in 8 tests
2002 - 9 (Sailor, Sharpe, Rogers, Hardman, Vickerman, Freier, Croft, Giteau, Bartholomeauz) in 10
2003 - 6 (Turinui, Tuqiri, Heenan, Baxter, Dunning, Roe) in 14
2004 - 6 (Rathbone, Samo, Henjak, Henderson, Chishom, Hoiles) in 12
2005 - 14 (Elsom, Moore, McMeniman, Gerrard, Campbell, Mitchell, Ashley-Cooper, Kanaar, Johansson, MacKay, G Holmes, Polota-Nau, Fava, Fitter) in 13

37 in 57 tests = ave of 0.649 per test

John Connolly:

2006 - 8 (Blake, McIsaacs, Shepherd, Valentine, Palu, Shepherdson, Robinson, Sheehan) debutants in 13 tests
2007 - 5 (Huxley, Norton-Knight, Ione, Horwill, Barnes) in 12

13 in 25 tests = ave of 0.52 per test

Robbie Deans:

2008 = 12 (Hynes, Burgess, Mumm, Alexander, Cross, Turner, Tahu, Brown, Pocock, Kepu, Cooper, O'Connor) debutants in 14 tests
2009 = 3 (Kimlin, Cowan, Genia) in 9

15 in 23 tests = ave of .652 per test.

 

[Newb]

and noddy works his magic again!

 

[OZGOD]

From the Australian


OK, it's 98% beat up based on maybe a whinge from someone.

But has Dingo gone rookie crazy, or are these the changes we needed?

Sharpe - useless fucker, glad he's flicked

Baxter - useless fucker, glad he's flicked

Waugh - great servant of OZ rugby, did us proud but past it now

Let's get some young blokes in. This is the perfect tour to blood them, 2 also rans in Ireland and Scotland, a half-decent side in Wales that will teach them how to tackle and then the Pommies. Let's see how these young blokes go. I admit I'm not too impressed with JOC (James O'Connor) and Lachie at the moment, but I'm prepared to give Dingo a go till 2011. If he can't at least get us to the final then fuck him off.

 

[waratahjesus]

From the Australian


OK, it's 98% beat up based on maybe a whinge from someone.

But has Dingo gone rookie crazy, or are these the changes we needed?

Sharpe - useless fucker, glad he's flicked

Baxter - useless fucker, glad he's flicked

Waugh - great servant of OZ rugby, did us proud but past it now

Let's get some young blokes in. This is the perfect tour to blood them, 2 also rans in Ireland and Scotland, a half-decent side in Wales that will teach them how to tackle and then the Pommies. Let's see how these young blokes go. I admit I'm not too impressed with JOC (James O'Connor) and Lachie at the moment, but I'm prepared to give Dingo a go till 2011. If he can't at least get us to the final then fuck him off.

ireland! also ran?
ireland and wales will be our two hardest games iwht england not far behind and scotland is the only one we really should be pencilled in to win in our current form.

i dont think waugh is past it, ive said it before and i will say it again, pocock isnt in his league yet, pococks intire reputation comes from what he is capable of but he only ever turns it on when the team is gong forward in front of him. he rarely is able to change the direction of a match ala smith or waugh and his reputation is much larger than his actual bite for mine.

i think if connolly was given the same open mandate to pick his team and have unwavering support for four years he would have been just as good a coach as deans is proving to be.

 

[cyclopath]

Does Thomo still read the Scarf? I suspect a vigorous reply to OzGod may be in the offing. Also rans? They did win the 6N with a Grand Slam.

 

[BillyWebb]

Just to pre-empt Thomo...

I seriously wouldn't underestimate Ireland. Especially on their own potato patch.
And Wales will be a pretty stern test too.

England... :nta: Hard to judge at this point. All I can think is that surely they won't be as crap as they were this time last year...?

 

[louie]

i think if connolly was given the same open mandate to pick his team and have unwavering support for four years he would have been just as good a coach as deans is proving to be.

Connolly had long enough and could od whatever he wanted if he had the balls. but had none. Connolly was an awful coach.

 

[Spook]

Finally some quotes from Gits. Dissapointment is a good thing that should make them go harder.

No tension within Wallabies camp, say Mortlock and Giteau
Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:41am GMT

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SYDNEY (Reuters) - Flyhalf Matt Giteau and former captain Stirling Mortlock have played down talk of a rift within the Wallabies camp over coach Robbie Deans' leadership appointments for the season-ending Europe tour.

Local media have reported player disenchantment within the Wallabies after Deans dumped Mortlock as captain for the tour and named Rocky Elsom as his successor. Playmaker Giteau was overlooked for vice captain in favour of Berrick Barnes.

The players, both included in the 35-man squad, told reporters at a training camp in Sydney on Tuesday that while they were disappointed at missing out on the leadership roles, they understood the decisions and their places in the team.

"I was really keen to try to lead this tour, I mean I have stated that," 80-test veteran Mortlock told Australian television.

"The reality is I totally understand the logic and the reasoning behind selecting a new captain," the 32-year-old added.

Giteau echoed Mortlock's disappointment but said there was no tension within the Wallabies.

"I think if you talk to any players within the squad at some point they would like some form of leadership role at some point in time, so from that point of view (I am) disappointed but fully supportive of the guys that obviously the coach and (ARU boss) John O'Neill have appointed," he said.

The Wallabies travel to Japan this month for their final Bledisloe Cup match against the All Blacks in Tokyo on October 31, before meeting England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland in the first "Grand Slam" tour of Europe in 25 years.

© Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved

 

[naza]

i think if connolly was given the same open mandate to pick his team and have unwavering support for four years he would have been just as good a coach as deans is proving to be.

Connolly had long enough and could od whatever he wanted if he had the balls. but had none. Connolly was an awful coach.

So if Knuckles was "awful" with a 64% win rate, what does that make Robbie '56.5%' Deans ?

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,26101897-5016959,00.html

Deans is facing some challenges of his own. Saturday's defeat took his winning percentage in 23 Tests down to 56.5 per cent, the lowest win ratio of any Wallabies coach of the professional era behind Rod Macqueen (79 per cent), John Connolly (64 per cent), Greg Smith (63 per cent) and Eddie Jones (57 per cent).

 

[Lee Grant]

Noddy

That's grand work on the stats. Thanks.

I had the feeling that Macqueen didn't have much of a turnover of players compared to how it is now - and that was part of our success in his coaching era. I thought that we kept using the same players more than other teams did because we didn't have a lot of depth. Even if their form wasn't all it should have been, we got an advantage from experienced players playing together a lot.

So much for that theory.


OZGOD

Baxter was the only one really dumped of the 3 you mentioned.


Sharpe had already opted to have an operation (unless he was warned that he wasn't going; so he may as well say so before the EOYT squad was announced); Waugh did himself a mischief in the Shute Shield final and would have had to miss the first 2 games of the tour (though he may have been dropped anyway) so he wouldn't have been a lot of value.


As for Ireland being an also ran after winning their first Grand Slam since 1948 (and including France, unlike our intended Grand Slam): well, we have to be fair to you as you watch no European rugby.




Have we picked too many young players for the tour? It looks like it, but taking into account that there are a couple of mid-week games in which a lot of the youngsters will get to play in and won't go near a test - not really.


So, in itself, I'm not really worried that we have so many players on tour in the 19, 20 and 21 year group. They will probably get their heads shoved up their arses in the mid-week games, as our Oz A team did about 3 years ago IIRR, but that will be neither here nor there.


I'm more concerned that we don't have enough seasoned players in Oz to be valid candidates to replace our top players in all positions in a test match day 22 if they are injured on tour, or in rotten form. The cadre of youngsters chosen to tour did not exactly keep out a bunch of experienced players who were obviously better than the young blokes and more worthy of being on the bench at Twickenham etc.


As to why: I won't go there there in this post.


Youth in a team is good to a point but you need a fair share of hard heads in a rugby team at any level.


I remember watching the Tahs Academy playing 3 curtain raisers to S14 games this year. The lost all three games comfortably but one in particular was instructive. It was against a team that was called the Australian Barbarians, but in reality it was a team of left over scrubbers from Sydney club rugby.


The scrubbers gave the young, talented blokes in the Junior Waratahs a lesson in practical senior rugby and smacked the team with "all the skills."


You will get that in other kinds of rugby too: when too many Colts go up into one Grade team, when too many young club players play in a Super14 match and when too many young Super14 players go to play in a test match.


Let's hope that not too many of the young fellows on tour get to play in the same test match and let's hope that Oz rugby can provide a few more experienced players for EOYTs down the track.

 

[naza]

Finally some quotes from Gits. Dissapointment is a good thing that should make them go harder.

You poor naive little fool. These guys are full time piss takers. They have no pride. And no shame. Giteau is the biggest gutless wonder on the planet. The only thing he leads us in is crabbing sideways, crumbling in big matches, aimless kicking, and cashing underserved pay cheques. The guy is a cancer. Cull now.

I am SO fucking over these guys talking a great game in the media and then not showing up on the Saturday. We have a whole team of Baxters.

 

[naza]

So, in itself, I'm not really worried that we have so many players on tour in the 19, 20 and 21 year group. They will probably get their heads shoved up their arses in the mid-week games, as our Oz A team did about 3 years ago IIRR, but that will be neither here nor there.

I still maintain the Ospreys loss is the worst in Australian rugby history and am livid that we basically just shrugged and accepted that result.

 

[Spook]

Finally some quotes from Gits. Dissapointment is a good thing that should make them go harder.

You poor naive little fool.

Is that directed at me or at Gits? :nta:

 

[louie]

So if Knuckles was "awful" with a 64% win rate, what does that make Robbie '56.5%' Deans ?

Knuckles had:
Vickerman
Lyons
McMeniman
Gregan
Larkham
Latham
Mortlock - in full form
Tuqiri
Gerrard
Huxley
Giteau - at 12 not without a seemingly massive ago

that is a huge difference in roster to what deans has.

 

[Biffo]

So if Knuckles was "awful" with a 64% win rate, what does that make Robbie '56.5%' Deans ?

I think you might find that Knuckles had a much higher proportion of easybeat opposition teams than Deans has had.

 

[Spook]

So if Knuckles was "awful" with a 64% win rate, what does that make Robbie '56.5%' Deans ?

I think you might find that Knuckles had a much higher proportion of easybeat opposition teams than Deans has had.

Deans also got us wins in England, France and South Africa.

 

[Spook]

Just back to the captaincy thing. Stephen Larkham commanded games at flyhalf. He was never a Captain but he was a leader. Captaincy goes beyond just the match day. What we need is on field leadership from 5-6 players. I think Deans is building the leadership in the squad very nicely.