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Too much youth over experience?

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waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
fatprop said:
waratahjesus said:
fatprop said:
Why is anyone surprised?

Deans' teams plays a specific style of rugby

His style requires players who have a very high workrate, good skills, pace, athleticism and team attitude.

He and Mitchell did the same with the All Blacks by getting rid of older units that don't meet that criteria.

and after he got rid of the "older" units, world cup time was a massive failure for them as they were outcouched by eddie jones and the young guns failed!

there has to be a balance, if it is right or not who knows until we get away on tour. the problem is, if this time next year we arnt more competitive, who gets chosen then?

and on top of that, if deans turns around in six months and says its going to take five years to rebuild not the three he promised, then what?

We are getting what was chosen by the powers that be, Deans isn't perfect, and I expect Sharpe to be there about; he hasn't been crap for a while and would be touring if not wounded.

We have found someone who scrummages about as well as Baxter, and with a higher workrate, so he is going to struggle to return if he doesn't extract a digit

Waugh? I didn't expect him to tour, his ability to cover wider play isn't as good as the other two and it will be a problem for the Tahs next season as well if we use any width.

i agree with everything but the waugh statement, i dont think we have a problem out wide, our problem is going stright and hard in the tackle and pushing over rucks, both things witch waugh excells in. the guy is a nugget, he alwas has a go and i dont think we have that at the moment, he isnt better than smith, but i think if waugh had been on the field with ten to go in the two or three close games we had this year instead of the pocock we might have seen a different result in one or two of them.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Deans knows what Waugh and Baxter can do. I reckon we'll see them again. They have been sacrificed so that more players can get experience . You ask why this didn't happen to someone like George Smith? Probably due to his versatility.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Interesting the accusation regardling leaking stuff to the press.

THE next two weeks will be critical to ensuring the Wallabies are able to embark on their historic Grand Slam tour free of internal dissent.

The 35-strong touring party was announced on Friday, with flanker Rocky Elsom named as the 76th Australian captain, replacing long-time skipper Stirling Mortlock and caretaker George Smith. But he could hardly have been handed a trickier assignment, taking over the reins when relations between some senior players and coach Robbie Deans are badly strained.

Overlaying those problems is a team-wide disaffection with the Australian Rugby Union, which players feel deliberately has painted them as money-grubbing. It is understood Deans attempted to clear the air with playmaker Matt Giteau on Saturday, assuring him that while he might have been passed over for the captaincy and vice-captaincy - which went instead to Berrick Barnes, four years and 52 Tests his junior - he still would play a key leadership role in the team.

But there was also widespread disbelief within the Wallabies that flanker Phil Waugh, 30, was passed over for the touring side. According to the ARU press release, Waugh was not considered for the seven-match tour because "he was not going to be available for the first fixtures" because of injury.

Yet Wallabies insiders have revealed Waugh is on target to be fully recovered from the quadriceps strain sustained in the Shute Shield grand final by October 31, the day the Wallabies open their tour with the Bledisloe Cup Test against the All Blacks in Tokyo.

Waugh's omission from the touring party is doubly baffling because he would have been the ideal person to lead the young Wallabies in their two midweek matches, against Gloucester on November 3, and the yet-to-be-confirmed game with Cardiff in the last week of the tour.

Sources also have told The Australian Mortlock is deeply upset at the decision to end his four-year reign as skipper and that he still has not been told officially his services as captain no longer are required. Mortlock could not be contacted yesterday for comment.

There is as well a deep-seated suspicion within the Wallabies that the ARU was involved in leaking a story to a Sydney newspaper that painted them as greedily out of control for seeking payment for an internal trial. The leak came just three days after their worst performance of the season in their 33-6 loss to the All Blacks in Wellington. The timing of the story was particularly suspicious given the Possibles v Probables trial had been cancelled more than a week earlier.

In fact, the Wallabies had held a meeting at which it was decided each player would decide what to do with any payment received if the ARU charged the public for admission, with most indicating they would donate it to charity.

Their trade union, the Rugby Union Players Association, had made it clear if the trial was held as part of ordinary training - as ultimately it was last Thursday - the players would not expect additional payment.

As ever, whatever rifts there are within the side have been magnified by the fact that the Wallabies are in the midst of a dreadful losing streak, having gone down in five of their past six Tri-Nations Tests. Arguably, the ruckus could quickly subside if they defeat the All Blacks and then get their attempt at a Grand Slam off to a flying start by beating England at Twickenham on November 7.

But if anyone is capable of uniting the Wallabies, the rampaging "follow me" flanker Elsom might just be the one.
Story
 

eddo

Larry Dwyer (12)
I don't know what to believe out of any of this shit.

But I'm fucking mystified by the theme through all of the dramas which seems to be a complete lack of communication.

There's always coaches out there who don't seem to understand that making decisions without letting players know before hand always leads to dissent.. but these coaches should never make it to the national level.

If Deans has dropped Morty without even bothering to tell him, that pisses me off. Even though it may have been due that's just not respecting the players.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I agree Eddo, But Morty was not the Captain George Smith was. Still Deans should have had a conversation with him. I think he is still our best 13 despite the fanboy attitude of others on here.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
The same complaints were made about Mitchell and Deans when they coached the ABs. Not telling long-serving players that they've been given the arse.

It sounds like they need to get together as a unique group.

And for the record, I have been an experience-over-youth man for years.
 

mark_s

Chilla Wilson (44)
I can understand why Morty would be upset if no one had of sat him down and explained the choice of Rocky as captain. Poor form from Deans (and the other coaches) if this is true - lets face it its not bloody hard to have a 10 min phone call.

However, its very hard not to suspect that there is a propaganda war going on here with the ARU and RUPA both leaking convenient stories (that are loose with the truth) to the media. The number of unnamed sources is getting ridiculous. Time for them to smoke the peace pipe or for changes of personnel.
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)
Do you guys really think Deans would not confront both Mortlock and Smith about his decision to give Elsom the captaincy? Deans isn't that type of person. There have been no quotes from the players or coach to substantiate any of the claims the media is making. As usual, the media tries to exaggerate a load of whisperings and hearsay.

I reckon most players in the 35 man squad, from reading the paper, would be quite amused but disappointed by what they are reading. And if there are any senior players unhappy with deans, they are either not even in the squad at the moment or would be a minority. One players (eg. Giteau) frustration with the coach is not going to impact a squad of 35. Most of the squad is compiled of young players who are just thrilled to be there.

It is either all rubbish or just an ongoing war between RUPA and the ARU.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
mark_s said:
I can understand why Morty would be upset if no one had of sat him down and explained the choice of Rocky as captain. Poor form from Deans (and the other coaches) if this is true - lets face it its not bloody hard to have a 10 min phone call.

However, its very hard not to suspect that there is a propaganda war going on here with the ARU and RUPA both leaking convenient stories (that are loose with the truth) to the media. The number of unnamed sources is getting ridiculous. Time for them to smoke the peace pipe or for changes of personnel.

From scrum.com:

His (Rocky's) appointment signals the end of Mortlock's 28-Test reign in charge of the national team.

"He wasn't excited but he was actually very good," coach Deans said of Mortlock's reaction to the change in leadership. "He had anticipated it, he suggested that he was going to ask that question of me anyway even if I hadn't have raised it, and he's been great.

"The reality is that Stirling will continue to offer leadership and he'll be of great value and great support to these blokes (Elsom and Barnes)."

Deans added of Elsom's appointment: "It's no secret that it's always been my preference to have a leader up front. It's difficult for Stirling from that wide out - not only in terms of communications with his peers but also with the referee. That's one advantage we get out of it but also Rocky's got the qualities we're looking for in terms of the way he goes about what he does."

The second and third paras are interesting.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
i just want someone to explain to me what "type of bloke robbie is", dude is useless, he hasnt got the cattle to play his gameplan but he doesnt have a plan b, talks in riddles and seems above critisism and unaccountable for losses while the reason we win!

its not to late to change before the next world cup, but we need to act now!
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
waratahjesus said:
i just want someone to explain to me what "type of bloke robbie is", dude is useless, he hasnt got the cattle to play his gameplan but he doesnt have a plan b, talks in riddles and seems above critisism and unaccountable for losses while the reason we win!

its not to late to change before the next world cup, but we need to act now!

Who is your candidate?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Biffo said:
waratahjesus said:
i just want someone to explain to me what "type of bloke robbie is", dude is useless, he hasnt got the cattle to play his gameplan but he doesnt have a plan b, talks in riddles and seems above critisism and unaccountable for losses while the reason we win!

its not to late to change before the next world cup, but we need to act now!

Who is your candidate?

I'm sure he believes the Tahs coaches can also do the Wallabies job at the same time.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Scotty said:
Biffo said:
waratahjesus said:
i just want someone to explain to me what "type of bloke robbie is", dude is useless, he hasnt got the cattle to play his gameplan but he doesnt have a plan b, talks in riddles and seems above critisism and unaccountable for losses while the reason we win!

its not to late to change before the next world cup, but we need to act now!

Who is your candidate?

I'm sure he believes the Tahs coaches can also do the Wallabies job at the same time.

He would be the only one
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
Scarfman said:
I have been an experience-over-youth man for years.

:) :) Me too - ever since I realized I could no longer rely on my youth to obtain anything worth having.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
i dont have options to throw out sorry, and thats not a cop out, i just dont know at the moment, but i dont think the wallabies set up has the answers that were looking for, are williams and graham capable of there jobs?

deans has appointed a team here that in my opinion cant do what they have said they will. it seems that most of the wallabies general skill level has diminished under this current rule and i dont see the way out of it.

were consistantly doing the same old shit, we need to look to the future, not just in playing staff, but in game plan and "playing succesful rugby like the crusaders" is not an f'n game plan, were a different group of boys with a different competition to win each and every game.

john mitchell and robbie deans need to go from australian rugby so we can develop our own game that plays to the strengths and benifit of australia!
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
waratahjesus said:
deans has appointed a team here that in my opinion cant do what they have said they will.

What have they not done that they said they would do?
 

Newb

Trevor Allan (34)
Biffo said:
Gagger said:
With their departure, Deans-created Wallabies now outnumber those introduced to international rugby by his predecessors John Connolly, Eddie Jones and Rod Macqueen, 18 players to 17.

Is that correct? I read it as Macqueen, Jones and Connolly introducing 17 Wallabies over slightly more than 10 years, which makes 1.7 per year. To replace a squad of 22 at that rate would take 12.9 years. It would mean that the average span of a Wallaby was 12.9 years. If you consider those who fail and are gone after one or two appearances and those who get 1-2 games as subs for injured players, you'd have many blokes in the match day 22 for 15-16 years. That's not sustainable, is it?

I might guess that the average span for a successful Wallaby is about 5 years, which would mean introducing 4.4 players each year.

i think the 17 are only the ones left in the squad, while 18 in the squad were brought in by deans. the previous coaches surely debuted more players than that over the years, but not all of them are around still.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
Newb said:
Biffo said:
Gagger said:
With their departure, Deans-created Wallabies now outnumber those introduced to international rugby by his predecessors John Connolly, Eddie Jones and Rod Macqueen, 18 players to 17.

Is that correct? I read it as Macqueen, Jones and Connolly introducing 17 Wallabies over slightly more than 10 years, which makes 1.7 per year. To replace a squad of 22 at that rate would take 12.9 years. It would mean that the average span of a Wallaby was 12.9 years. If you consider those who fail and are gone after one or two appearances and those who get 1-2 games as subs for injured players, you'd have many blokes in the match day 22 for 15-16 years. That's not sustainable, is it?

I might guess that the average span for a successful Wallaby is about 5 years, which would mean introducing 4.4 players each year.

i think the 17 are only the ones left in the squad, while 18 in the squad were brought in by deans. the previous coaches surely debuted more players than that over the years, but not all of them are around still.

Thanks. The English expression wasn't so good, was it?

I am too lazy to go and find out how many Wallabies were introduced by Macqueen, Jones and Connolly and calculate their average annual turnover. Maybe when I am very bored I will look it up.

All I can deduce from your correction of my understanding is that there are 17 in the tour squad with 2-8 (or more) years as Wallabies and 18 with less than 2 years.

Connolly, who started 20 months before a World Cup, introduced very few. Look where that got us :huxley. It also suggests that most of the 17 pre-Robbie members of the squad have been there 4 or more years.

Stuff it. I'll go and dig out the stats and see what we get in personnel turnover.

I think we would find, if we dug right into it, that "successful" Wallabies are increasingly doing terms which end after RWCs. We'd have to factor that in to the analysis of turnover. We'd also have to consider that successful groups might tend to stay longer.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Contrast Growden with Wayne Smith. Growden is innuendo, Smith actually talks to the guys involved. It sounds as though the bottom line is that Mortlock and, probably, Giteau were slightly annoyed about the way things were handled but will get over themselves.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26200928-2722,00.html

THE public announcement that Stirling Mortlock had been dumped as Wallabies captain went ahead without the man himself having been told. Not that he needed to be informed. He could read the signs.

Although Mortlock had a number of meetings with head coach Robbie Deans about a range of issues relating to the Wallabies spring tour, including the captaincy, no firm decision was ever reached on whether he would continue in the job he has held, almost permanently, since 2006.

"I was pretty much aware (what the decision would be)," Mortlock said yesterday. "But on the actual day, no, I wasn't told. It wasn't flagged here or there, but on the day the squad was announced, I was with my family at the movies. So I wasn't contactable. Maybe it was a bit of blurred dialogue ... we'd spoken about it (the captaincy) at length and Robbie had indicated which way he was leaning. I guess I was waiting for the phone call which said 'OK we've made a decision you're not the captain'."

Of course, there was no way Mortlock would have been allowed to go off to the movies while a Wallabies squad announcement was under way if he had in fact been chosen to lead the side. In his place at the press conference alongside Deans and ARU boss John O'Neill sat a for once clean-shaven and spruce Rocky Elsom. Clearly the incoming skipper had been alerted to the momentous changes afoot.

There was no bitterness in Mortlock's voice as he reflected on the graceless changing of the guard. "I would have loved to have captained this tour and I said that. But at the same time I fully understand the logic of putting in a new leader now to take us through to the 2011 World Cup," he said. "I did have aspirations to lead the tour but I've put them aside. I'm totally behind the decision and totally behind Rocky. I think he'll do a great job." Still, it was a curious and somewhat callous denouement to his 28-Test reign as Wallabies captain. One would have thought he deserved better if for no other reason than he was the man who landed the injury-time angled penalty goal in Durban in 2000 that clinched Australia's first Tri-Nations title; the same man whose 80m intercept try against the All Blacks put the Wallabies into the 2003 World Cup final.

Losing the captaincy has tilted Mortlock slightly more in favour of retiring from Test rugby and accepting a contract in Japan, but really nothing has changed. He is waiting for his body to tell him what to do and he intends to confer with it at length at the end of the Grand Slam tour. "That's where my mindset is," he said.

Happily, his body is telling him nothing but good things at the moment. Under normal circumstances, he would have pushed it hard to be back playing by now, after undergoing knee surgery following the Cape Town Test against the Springboks in August. "But we're still three weeks away from the Tokyo Test (against the All Blacks) so there wasn't too much reason to accelerate my progress," he said.

He might have surrendered the captaincy graciously but there is no way he intends parting with the gold 13 jersey that was his to command before he was injured. He is the first to admit he was "playing poorly" at Newlands, turning over two balls in successive hit-ups before he was replaced, but he puts that down to a wobbly knee.

"It was one of those injuries where you think it was just a hard knock and that it's going to get better. But it got worse. I had no power in my leg and the way I play the game, trying to bust through tackles, I wasn't able to make a positive contribution. If anything, it was the other way around," Mortlock said.

The Wallabies played out the remaining four Tests of the Tri-Nations series with a lightweight backline and were found out. But with Mortlock and dynamic winger Digby Ioane back, the Australians have some real hitting power out wide. Perhaps more importantly, they now have two players who will run straight and hard and attack the tryline, not the sideline.

All season long, the Wallabies have been one thing or the other, either too direct or too lateral. Hopefully the return of the 80-Test veteran will allow them to mix up their game a little more.

Off the field, the Wallabies appear a mixed-up team at the moment, with dissension and discontent dogging the pre-tour build-up, a state Mortlock attributes more than anything to the fact the side has won just one of its last six Tests. "We've had continually poor results and when that occurs, a lot of things bubble to the surface. Over the next couple of weeks we've got a good opportunity to all get on the same page and address whatever needs to be addressed and then move forward," he said.

Five-eighth Matt Giteau's unhappiness has been well documented but Mortlock, a good friend, insists his Brumbies teammate will be right by the time the tour gets under way. "He's a world-class player and he has proven that over many years. I have full confidence in Gits. He'll be sweet," he said.

The same applies to Mortlock. He didn't ask to have the captaincy taken off away but now that it has, he has no intention of second-guessing Elsom or lending him unwelcome advice.
 
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