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Too much youth over experience?

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Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
From the Australian

Wallabies coach Robbie Deans needs to address his veterans

By Wayne Smith
October 10, 2009

Before Wallabies coach Robbie Deans starts thinking about winning Tests on the Grand Slam tour, he may need to think first about winning back his senior players.

Admittedly, there aren't that many senior players left in the Wallabies ranks these days, not after three more survivors of the 2003 World Cup final, Al Baxter, Nathan Sharpe and Phil Waugh fell by the wayside on Friday, perhaps to return some day, perhaps not.

With their departure, Deans-created Wallabies now outnumber those introduced to international rugby by his predecessors John Connolly, Eddie Jones and Rod Macqueen, 18 players to 17.

That's as it should be, with age inevitably giving way to youth, but it's a process that needs to be managed with some finesse.

Rumbles from within the Wallabies squad would suggest that Deans has some work to do in this regard, and not just with Matt Giteau, who all too evidently feels his opinion carries no more weight than that of the rankest rookie.

It's an admirable goal to try to create a non-hierarchical structure but the evidence of every single World Cup is that teams with a hard core of leaders prevail. And while it sounds noble to suggest it's every player's responsibility to provide leadership, it's unrealistic to expect an uncapped Kurtley Beale to respond to the pressure of a cliffhanger Test as coolly as a 73-cap veteran like Giteau.

But with one greybeard after another being made to feel that they are just one poor game away from oblivion, the natural leaders in the Wallabies are having their authority stripped away from them.

All these sentiments have been simmering for some time. What brought them bubbling to the surface was Deans's scathing post-match claims that the Wallabies rolled over in the recent Wellington Test and didn't show the same pride in their jersies as the All Blacks did in theirs.

Deans's anger at that performance was hardly surprising, given how far his unchanged side had slipped from the lofty standards it set in its previous outing, when it comprehensively outplayed the world champion Springboks in Brisbane.

But where the Wallabies had been brilliant a fortnight before in Brisbane, they were bereft of ideas in Wellington. They made one appalling mistake after another, starting with Giteau's failure to find touch from Australia's first penalty of the match. The All Blacks, by contrast, were at the peak of their game.

But although the Wallabies always seemed a pace behind them, they were fighting hard. Even when one of Deans's discoveries, teenage fullback James O'Connor, made a meal of accepting a high ball and gifted the All Blacks a try that took the score from 6-9 to 6-16, the Wallabies kept pounding away.

As the clock ticked down, halfback Will Genia flicked one of his trademark sneaky inside passes to a flying Drew Mitchell, who threw himself at the tryline. But when the All Blacks defence held firm and stripped him of possession, just centimetres short of the score that would have set up a nail-biting finale, the rubber band broke.

That's the point that Steve Waugh and his Australian cricketers always strove to reach, when the opposition begins to physically and mentally disintegrate under relentless pressure.

But to take in isolation the last 10 minutes in Wellington when the Wallabies conceded two tries, and to accuse them of rolling over and showing no pride in the jersey is to uncouple cause and effect. What happened at the death can't be divorced from what happened earlier.

It took 70 minutes of relentless All Black pressure to trigger that disintegration.

Senior players who have served Australia well, some of them for nearly a decade, don't react well when accused of tossing in the towel. They're not being precious. They'll cop all the criticism that was warranted, that their ball-retention was dreadful, that they ran bad lines, were beaten in the air and on the ground and generally were outplayed. But they won't cop accusations that they rolled over, that they dishonoured the Australian jersey.

In too many respects, the Wellington Test stirred unhappy memories of the 2007 World Cup quarter-final loss to England. That, too, was a dreadful performance by the Wallabies but no one afterwards accused them of giving up.

Significantly, it was Rocky Elsom who publicly took issue with Deans over his post-match attack. "Even the most selfish and disinterested player would find it hard to roll over," Elsom growled earlier this week.

It will be interesting to see whether Elsom moderates his observations now that he has been elevated to the Wallabies captaincy. Hopefully not. If there is one thing Australian rugby needs right now, it's some plain speaking.

And speaking plainly, this tension within the Wallabies squad needs to be addressed before the spring tour gets under way. Deans has made a heavy and welcome investment in youth but the Grand Slam tour could quickly turn into a grand fiasco if the greybeards in the team remain at odds with the coach.

OK, it's 98% beat up based on maybe a whinge from someone.

But has Dingo gone rookie crazy, or are these the changes we needed?
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
I dont mind the youth approach and our team wasnt winning and something had to give. problem i have is, with the world cup under two years away. if these rookies dont step up in the next year, then we pretty much have to bring some old gaurd back and find the right balance.

if the old gaurd is being treated badly, then are they going to be around to answer that call if it comes or are they going to piss off to europe.

out of the list of rookies, not many of them have actually siezed the opportunity. JOC (James O'Connor) looks out of his depth, Pocock is as inconsistant as he is good in the rare moments he turns up. Turner looks like he needs a couple of more years, he hasnt really trusted quade yet with a start in a harder test. these things start to ad up, how many times does youth fail before its a failure and not gaining experience?
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Am I right in saying that part of the reason we have so many new players is the fact that a few of the old players stayed a long long time.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
Gagger said:
With their departure, Deans-created Wallabies now outnumber those introduced to international rugby by his predecessors John Connolly, Eddie Jones and Rod Macqueen, 18 players to 17.

Is that correct? I read it as Macqueen, Jones and Connolly introducing 17 Wallabies over slightly more than 10 years, which makes 1.7 per year. To replace a squad of 22 at that rate would take 12.9 years. It would mean that the average span of a Wallaby was 12.9 years. If you consider those who fail and are gone after one or two appearances and those who get 1-2 games as subs for injured players, you'd have many blokes in the match day 22 for 15-16 years. That's not sustainable, is it?

I might guess that the average span for a successful Wallaby is about 5 years, which would mean introducing 4.4 players each year.
 

louie

Desmond Connor (43)
1. Sharpe and Baxter have had their chance. That time has past and it's time for us to move on. We havn't won for years. Your to blame. You can't teach an old dog new Tricks.

2. Australian rugby History is built by youth. Campo, Ella, Gregan, etc. When we've been at our prime we've had youth dominating. not 30+ guys hanging round. This is something i blame the pro era on.
 

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
Sully said:
Am I right in saying that part of the reason we have so many new players is the fact that a few of the old players stayed a long long time.

I think you are right, especially if you add "and achieved very little".
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
When I was last talking to Robbie Deans* he said

"Gaggs, keep this to yourself, but I've now had a good look at these fellas and have come to some conclusions:

a) It's better having poorly skilled players who are young and inherently fit than old and about to get injured

b) The mentality among the 'senior player group' sucks and has to go. It's FIFO time."


*this bit is untrue
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think this mostly reflects the fact that the Macqueen era brought together some of our best-ever players who overstayed their welcome in the Jones + Connolly era.

louie said:
1. Sharpe and Baxter have had their chance. That time has past and it's time for us to move on. We havn't won for years. Your to blame. You can't teach an old dog new Tricks.

There is no explanation yet for why Seagull Sharpe gets picked for long stretches - it goes down with the Min Min lights and I Can't Believe Its Not Butter as mysteries in the "too hard" basket. Baxter (and you can quote me on this) is probably in a position now where Alexander could succeed him now, and should do so for the sake of our RWC2011 prospects.

I don't mind a bit of short-term pain, but if the senior players want to sit around and bitch ... well, the door is thataway, pal. Don't let it hit your arse on the way out.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Absolutely - and what I hate the most about this sort of crap is it makes us look like the part-time rugby country that everyone else thinks we are.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
How's this for "journo groupthink"?


Robbie Deans rift threatens Wallabies

* By Ben Blaschke
* From: The Sunday Telegraph


THERE are fears panic and a player rift with coach Robbie Deans could tear apart the Wallabies.

A source close to the side told The Sunday Telegraph friction had developed between Deans and a number of senior players.

Matt Giteau, in particular, is believed to be unhappy that he isn't guaranteed the No.10 jumper, while the players reacted poorly to Deans accusing them of "rolling over'' in the 33-6 loss to New Zealand in Wellington last start.

"Accusing them of rolling over was not a good move. There is no doubt there is a fair bit of panic there, too,'' a Wallabies insider said.

"Changing the team every five minutes doesn't help, but Robbie likes to have people around him he feels he has created.''

The elevation of Rocky Elsom as Wallabies captain could also spell the end of Stirling Mortlock's international career.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.

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That's the opinion of former Wallabies mentors Bob Dwyer and John Connolly and legendary winger David Campese after a number of dramatic changes were made to the squad for next month's tour of Britain.

Deans announced his 35-man squad on Friday, which came with some controversial changes.

They included Elsom replacing Mortlock as captain, the appointment of youngster Berrick Barnes as vice-captain and the omission of Phil Waugh and Al Baxter.

While there is widespread support for Elsom, Mortlock's axing is seen by many as a clear indication that he is on the way out.

"In order to be captain you've got to be a certain choice in the team,'' said 1991 World Cup-winning coach Dwyer.

"I don't know what they've said to Stirling, but you'd have to think that they're not too sure that he can command a place in the team all the time anymore.

"I've thought for the past year or so he might not be a certainty.''

Connolly pointed to Mortlock's recent trip to Japan for talks with the Kyuden Voltex club as a sign of things to come.

"I think Stirling signalled his intentions by going to Japan a while ago and there is some suggestion there that he is starting to think about what he is doing,'' Connolly said of the 32-year-old centre.

"At his age, they might think it's time to move on even though he still has something to offer the team.''

Campese was particularly scathing in his assessment of the Wallabies' Tri Nations campaign, insisting it was time to settle on a side and stick with it.

"Again we seem to be swapping and changing,'' he said. "If you're trying to build the nucleus of a side then you need to use those players all year.''

Last time I saw media noises like this from Giteau was when he was threatening a move to France to wring more cash out of the Force.

He hasn't got the form this season to back this one up. It could get very interesting.
 
S

Spook

Guest
Elsom is the only one who could be considered a senior figure and has actually stated to the media he wasn't happy with Deans comments post the NZ test. Deans then makes him captain. Go figure - personally I think that's very healthy.

When we look at the those seniors players who haven't been taken into the squad we have just 3 - Sharpe, Baxter and Waugh. Sharpe is crocked. Waugh is crocked for 2 games but is on the outer. Baxter hasn't been taken. Mortlock knows his days are numbered - see Japanese vist. Is the problem in or out of the squad?

The fucking negativity in the media is starting to kill me. :angryfire: :'(
 

louie

Desmond Connor (43)
Spook said:
The fucking negativity in the media is starting to kill me.

This is really starting to fuck me off as well. Everyday it's either everyone hates deans or their punching each other out.
or every hates JON.

If Gits is winging about not being handed the no 10 on plate then he can fuck off to France for all i care. Too much rock star bullshit. I don't want him at the Brumbies if this is what he has turned into.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
To be fair to Gits, we have to bear in mind the potential accuracy or otherwise of what he is supposed to say. My experience of the media makes me cautious of believing much they write.
That said, he should suck it up and play where he damn well gets picked, and do it quietly - as others have said he hasn't stamped the 10 jersey as his own by any stretch.
The "player power" stories in Aus rugby are becoming more and more tiresome, and I wonder who keeps giving them currency. Is it RUPA? Is it idiot player managers?
As for the youth? We may as well get some new guys in there to cut their teeth a bit, but not over-experiment - after all it is a grand slam tour. I have no problem with the old heads left behind.
 

Henry

Bill Watson (15)
I think Deans is going about it the right way. I'm just so sick of stories like this which are so obviously going to harm the Wallabies reputation with the public. Whats the point, why are the journos even bothering. Do they actually support the Wallabies?
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Why is anyone surprised?

Deans' teams plays a specific style of rugby

His style requires players who have a very high workrate, good skills, pace, athleticism and team attitude.

He and Mitchell did the same with the All Blacks by getting rid of older units that don't meet that criteria.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
fatprop said:
Why is anyone surprised?

Deans' teams plays a specific style of rugby

His style requires players who have a very high workrate, good skills, pace, athleticism and team attitude.

He and Mitchell did the same with the All Blacks by getting rid of older units that don't meet that criteria.

and after he got rid of the "older" units, world cup time was a massive failure for them as they were outcouched by eddie jones and the young guns failed!

there has to be a balance, if it is right or not who knows until we get away on tour. the problem is, if this time next year we arnt more competitive, who gets chosen then?

and on top of that, if deans turns around in six months and says its going to take five years to rebuild not the three he promised, then what?
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
I would make an example out of Giteau, dont take him on the tour and let him stay at home and practice with the Brumby's, this way we will see if he has the hunger to succeed again, or want to take the easy money.
 

Lance Free

Arch Winning (36)
You need a combination of youth and experience. You just can't throw the baby out with the bath water. It's about form. As they say with young players - if you're good enough you're old enough. That works with older players as well. The benefit of experience has got to be a measurable factor at the selection table.

Sharpe (31), Waugh (30) and Baxter (32) aren't old in terms of being an international rugby forward. Julian White (36), Phil Vickery (33), Danny Grewcock (36) and Simon Shaw (36) are getting on a bit but all have played test rugby this year for England/Lions. Good tight forwards are frequently only maturing in their late 20's. Carl Hayman as an example (30 next month).

You have to renew when its required and blood the young blokes. But not at the expense of your hardened and experienced internationals - those with things still to offer.

I think Le Fuse, although below international class in his first few years, has been a bit hard done by. I reckon he might have been an asset on a tour like this one coming up. Some of these young props may get exposed in the European theatre. I hope Fuse gets signed up by an English club and goes over and does the business. He'd be really suitable for their conditions.

And the stuff about Gits is more than likely just bullshit. Sure, he may not be happy about the way he's gone and some aspects of the current situation but he's one of the few world class Wallaby players around. I think we need to cut him a bit of slack if there are issues and let him play his way back to form. There's absolutely no way you'd leave him behind or not select him.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
waratahjesus said:
fatprop said:
Why is anyone surprised?

Deans' teams plays a specific style of rugby

His style requires players who have a very high workrate, good skills, pace, athleticism and team attitude.

He and Mitchell did the same with the All Blacks by getting rid of older units that don't meet that criteria.

and after he got rid of the "older" units, world cup time was a massive failure for them as they were outcouched by eddie jones and the young guns failed!

there has to be a balance, if it is right or not who knows until we get away on tour. the problem is, if this time next year we arnt more competitive, who gets chosen then?

and on top of that, if deans turns around in six months and says its going to take five years to rebuild not the three he promised, then what?

We are getting what was chosen by the powers that be, Deans isn't perfect, and I expect Sharpe to be there about; he hasn't been crap for a while and would be touring if not wounded.

We have found someone who scrummages about as well as Baxter, and with a higher workrate, so he is going to struggle to return if he doesn't extract a digit

Waugh? I didn't expect him to tour, his ability to cover wider play isn't as good as the other two and it will be a problem for the Tahs next season as well if we use any width.
 
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