The ranting at Deans/ARU/O'Neill/Players thread

[waratahjesus]

How do you figure that?

We have 2 weeks befor we go to south Africa. We have a squad picked, assistant coaches picked.

There are two things people aren't factoring in here if deans goes, 1)what hope a new coach has walking in to that setup. 2)HR and due process.

Noted, Link or anyone else given the job will no doubt be able to say and deflect performance issues back to deans tenure for at least a couple of years without having to produce anything themselves. Yet I'm not sure even people that really want the job are gonna say yes to it if it involves 2 training sessions and a flight to SA, it would be naive to think that inheriting the current team will have a culture effect that would work long term. A new coach should be given the opportunity to pick their squad and mould, not inherit then deliver.

It is also completely unlikely that in a contested job such as a national coaching appointment that the ARU are suddenly going to just ring someone and offer them a contract. If deans goes tomorrow, a caretaker would be put in place. Now that's going to be someone already on the ArU books, so we have totally tony or Dave nucifora for the job. Anyone wanting it permanently will be invited to make an application.

 

[redstragic]

I woke up this morning excited by the prospect that Deans might have resigned overnight, instead he is saying he is going nowhere.

So many workplaces reward underperforming employees with menial tasks away from areas where they can cause damage to the core business. Is the right strategy to buy a pallet of photocopier paper and get Deans to count each sheet to double check the quantity?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

We have 2 weeks befor we go to south Africa. We have a squad picked, assistant coaches picked.

There are two things people aren't factoring in here if deans goes, 1)what hope a new coach has walking in to that setup. 2)HR and due process.

Noted, Link or anyone else given the job will no doubt be able to say and deflect performance issues back to deans tenure for at least a couple of years without having to produce anything themselves. Yet I'm not sure even people that really want the job are gonna say yes to it if it involves 2 training sessions and a flight to SA, it would be naive to think that inheriting the current team will have a culture effect that would work long term. A new coach should be given the opportunity to pick their squad and mould, not inherit then deliver.

It is also completely unlikely that in a contested job such as a national coaching appointment that the ARU are suddenly going to just ring someone and offer them a contract. If deans goes tomorrow, a caretaker would be put in place. Now that's going to be someone already on the ArU books, so we have totally tony or Dave nucifora for the job. Anyone wanting it permanently will be invited to make an application.

Doesn't this mean JON won't sack him?
It couldn't be easily done until after the EOYT for the reasons you cite - maybe its doable between the end of RC and EOYT but there's hardly enough time to sack him and scour this planet (and any others on which there might be viable candidates) appoint him (or her) approve of assistants and change the sign writing.
If I read you correctly the real impediment may be the HR one: if they sack him they would have to pay him out - thats near enough to $2m. I think the ARU would balk at paying that given what we understand to be their financial position.
If so, then this can be traced back to the ridiculous decision of JON to reappoint Deans 2 weeks prior to RWC 2011 for 2 years. Whatever Deans wanted and why ever he wanted it, given his track record to that time, reappointment was premature pending the outcome of RWC 2011 and, secondly, had they waited until after RWC 2011 they might have legitimately said we'll give you a year - Rd paying the price for the loss to Ireland which set up a semi-final, instead of a final, clash with the darkness. I think we all would have thought a loss in the final (probably inevitable in that scenario - but not quite) would have been a bloody good outcome.
So - JON has royally stuffed this up on any view and at many levels.
He should resign whatever else happens.

 

[Gnostic]

I expect my ire to drop a few levels by this morning, especially since I have been banging the drum regarding Deans for 3 years come the EOYT this year. Alas it is not so. I read the transcript of Deans post match interview and it was enough to fan the coals back to blast furnace levels.

As I said yesterday, Dingo by name - Dingo by nature. If the man had a shred of integrity he would resign. He has nothing of value to offer, that has been proved, and the ARU because of the abject stupidity/arrogance of JON and obsequious, cowardly behaviour of the board, along with the "review" cannot afford to sack him. It would break the bank. SO he will continue to turn up and tack his over blown pay packet which he does Sweet FA in real terms to justify. Well done Deans and JON you have teamed together to totally F*&^ Oz Rugby. There are no words to express my contempt.

My vitriol today is not restricted to JON, Deans and the ARU board. It is also for the permissive fans (and Mods) who have continued in the face of all evidence to offer excuses and allow the ARU to get away with what they have done. The tide has turned now and Deans will not be let off the hook this time I believe, but too many of you have for too long allowed this total collapse to build. It is so much harder to build off the low base and there are now so many new nadirs that Deans has found and whoever gets the job will have a so much harder job. It will be too much to expect an apology for some of the comments made, since I have been proved correct, but I will say you were told, and not just by me and other Australian posters, we were warned quietly by some knowledgeable NZ posters at the time of Deans appointment. So to those who permit such things and not demand at least some accountability to you I give the proverbial finger, you also have a share of by derision.

My barely coherent anger at those who have a part in this has only begun.

 

[Gnostic]

We have 2 weeks befor we go to south Africa. We have a squad picked, assistant coaches picked.

There are two things people aren't factoring in here if deans goes, 1)what hope a new coach has walking in to that setup. 2)HR and due process.

Noted, Link or anyone else given the job will no doubt be able to say and deflect performance issues back to deans tenure for at least a couple of years without having to produce anything themselves. Yet I'm not sure even people that really want the job are gonna say yes to it if it involves 2 training sessions and a flight to SA, it would be naive to think that inheriting the current team will have a culture effect that would work long term. A new coach should be given the opportunity to pick their squad and mould, not inherit then deliver.

It is also completely unlikely that in a contested job such as a national coaching appointment that the ARU are suddenly going to just ring someone and offer them a contract. If deans goes tomorrow, a caretaker would be put in place. Now that's going to be someone already on the ArU books, so we have totally tony or Dave nucifora for the job. Anyone wanting it permanently will be invited to make an application.

Interesting - remind me again of the interview process that happened when Deans became Wallabies coach. How did he go there? Oh yeah that's right.

 

[redstragic]

Interesting - remind me again of the interview process that happened when Deans became Wallabies coach. How did he go there? Oh yeah that's right.

I want to say "you go girl" but fear you will rage against me i don't think we have been permissive as much as JO'N has exercised his power far too autocratically only leaving room for dissenters/alternative views on the outside.

This is only my opinion on why we do not seem to have a system or plan that can match it with the Wold's best.

 

[waratahjesus]

Interesting - remind me again of the interview process that happened when Deans became Wallabies coach. How did he go there? Oh yeah that's right.

They ran a full and detailed interview process then extended the deadline and gave it to deans.

They still ran the interview process though. This is my point.

There not going to ring someone and give them the job out of the blue and if they do they will be doing so due to politics or public opinion and neither should dictate the coach of a national team.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I want to say "you go girl" but fear you will rage against me i don't think we have been permissive as much as JO'N has exercised his power far too autocratically only leaving room for dissenters/alternative views on the outside.

This is only my opinion on why we do not seem to have a system or plan that can match it with the Wold's best.

Its a good one: JON stands for no dissent.
No organisation functions properly for long, if at all, unless alternative views are voiced, considered, explored and occasionally implemented.
Unless you already have all the answers: that exception has been comprehensively and conclusively eliminated.

 

[Gnostic]

They ran a full and detailed interview process then extended the deadline and gave it to deans.

They still ran the interview process though. This is my point.

There not going to ring someone and give them the job out of the blue and if they do they will be doing so due to politics or public opinion and neither should dictate the coach of a national team.

Really. Deans undertook the same interview process? His appointment was fait accompli as soon as the NZRU was smart enough not to employ him and for the first time ever re-appointed a coach, indeed the whole coaching team, that failed to meet their expectations. Deans did not undergo the same interview process, things were changed to allow JON to appoint him right from the start. My point. That being said, I was happy with the appointment at the time, as Link had failed to change the Tahs game plan and methods, Nucifora was disliked by the players (and whilst not something I normally care about in a manager when it happens you must look at the reasons why it is so).

He was JON's appointment and JON's re-appointment. As others have said, JON has been very autocratic since his return, and the only way Autocrats see the light is for people to show some guts and stand up to them.

 

[Bowside]

It's not like there are even that many other options. White is only other domestic coach who would be looked at, but with moral low they wont go for another foreign coach.

The thing stopping them would not be deans so much, but rather the fact that if link came in, he would want JON, McGahan, Blades, Nucifora etc. all gone as well. That is a lot of contracts to pay out.

I think the board would be pretty happy to hand the reigns over to link, but they would want to interview his assistants. Meehan, Blake, Lane and Kiss would all probably apply to be assistants, and that's before you even mention the current reds assistants who would be favorites for the jobs.

All of this would have to be done by the middle of this week. I think it is possible, but I doubt the current board are competent enough to get it done in time.

 

[waratahjesus]

The thing stopping them would not be deans so much, but rather the fact that if link came in, he would want JON, McGahan, Blades, Nucifora etc. all gone as well. That is a lot of contracts to pay out.
e.

It's one thing to want your own assistants, but if link actually wants to dictate who his boss is, he should never be appointed in the first place.

 

[Bowside]

It is not his decision to dictate who the boss is, but I suspect his decision to accept a coaching offer might hinge on it. The board will have the final say in both cases.

 

[redstragic]

It's one thing to want your own assistants, but if link actually wants to dictate who his boss is, he should never be appointed in the first place.

Here for me is the fundamental problem. From the outside looking in the ARU looks dysfunctional. Any coach worth their salt would have to assess their ability to work with the players as well as the management.

I have said it before, I do not think Deans a bad coach but given his environment is not getting the results and looks a dill at times. Was TT Deans' idea? At the time it appeared that Deans was left out of that selection loop, it is not an environment for a head coach to "bring his own people" into.

 

[Bowside]

I actually wouldn't mind if the ARU came out and said deans is going to be sacked, but not until the end of the RC. I think we would see some interesting results from deans and his assistants as they fight to prove their worth to the rest of the rugby world so that they can get jobs after they finish up with the wallabies.

 

[Richo]

My vitriol today is not restricted to JON, Deans and the ARU board. It is also for the permissive fans (and Mods) who have continued in the face of all evidence to offer excuses and allow the ARU to get away with what they have done. The tide has turned now and Deans will not be let off the hook this time I believe, but too many of you have for too long allowed this total collapse to build. It is so much harder to build off the low base and there are now so many new nadirs that Deans has found and whoever gets the job will have a so much harder job. It will be too much to expect an apology for some of the comments made, since I have been proved correct, but I will say you were told, and not just by me and other Australian posters, we were warned quietly by some knowledgeable NZ posters at the time of Deans appointment. So to those who permit such things and not demand at least some accountability to you I give the proverbial finger, you also have a share of by derision.

My barely coherent anger at those who have a part in this has only begun.

Gnostic, it might be time to walk away from the keyboard for a while. Barely coherent is correct. It ain't the fans fault and it ain't the fault of anyone on this forum either.

 

[cyclopath]

My vitriol today is not restricted to JON, Deans and the ARU board. It is also for the permissive fans (and Mods) who have continued in the face of all evidence to offer excuses and allow the ARU to get away with what they have done. The tide has turned now and Deans will not be let off the hook this time I believe, but too many of you have for too long allowed this total collapse to build. It is so much harder to build off the low base and there are now so many new nadirs that Deans has found and whoever gets the job will have a so much harder job. It will be too much to expect an apology for some of the comments made, since I have been proved correct, but I will say you were told, and not just by me and other Australian posters, we were warned quietly by some knowledgeable NZ posters at the time of Deans appointment. So to those who permit such things and not demand at least some accountability to you I give the proverbial finger, you also have a share of by derision.

My barely coherent anger at those who have a part in this has only begun.

This is utter nonsense. It is one slightly unhinged thing to expect fans to take up pitch-forks and run JO'N and Deans out of office, but what the fuck do a bunch of moderators on a website have to do with propagating their reign? I get that you're pissed off, but you are spraying at all the wrong targets. Demand accountability? Via our pipeline into ARU central? Step back for a minute, mate.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

One possible solution would be to flick Deans and make McGahan the head coach. Tell him that his performance as caretaker will count towards (or against) any chance of having the top job. The point about paying out the contracts of the assistants is well made though. That is a lot of money. Any incoming coach would want their own team, but if Link were to get the job I have a feeling that he'd take at least some of these guys.

One other thing: I know we all think that Link is a walk up start for the Wallaby job, but surely there is a process to be followed to get there? Simply anointing someone as the successor and not working through applicants is pretty unprofessional. This is a job that you want to award to someone until at least RWC2015, so being rigorous I'd have thought would be paramount.

 

[The Snout]

One other thing: I know we all think that Link is a walk up start for the Wallaby job, but surely there is a process to be followed to get there? Simply anointing someone as the successor and not working through applicants is pretty unprofessional. This is a job that you want to award to someone until at least RWC2015, so being rigorous I'd have thought would be paramount.

I hear Peter de Villiers is available

 

[Gagger]

My vitriol today is not restricted to JON, Deans and the ARU board. It is also for the permissive fans (and Mods) who have continued in the face of all evidence to offer excuses and allow the ARU to get away with what they have done. The tide has turned now and Deans will not be let off the hook this time I believe, but too many of you have for too long allowed this total collapse to build. It is so much harder to build off the low base and there are now so many new nadirs that Deans has found and whoever gets the job will have a so much harder job. It will be too much to expect an apology for some of the comments made, since I have been proved correct, but I will say you were told, and not just by me and other Australian posters, we were warned quietly by some knowledgeable NZ posters at the time of Deans appointment. So to those who permit such things and not demand at least some accountability to you I give the proverbial finger, you also have a share of by derision.

My barely coherent anger at those who have a part in this has only begun.

Gnostic, this is called 'biting the hand that feeds you'.

We've put up with the continual crowing and bleating for personal recognition in just how right you were and wronged by everyone else who dared disagree with you. Can you imagine if everyone else in a similar situation on this forum did the same - what a god-awful place. And no, we (aforementioned cowardly moderators of G&GR) will not be creating a plaque, awards or T-Shirts honouring your brave foresight - so you need to deal with that.

In your post above however, you've gone beyond that to insult those who work unpaid to give you a forum to put your views in front of thousands. Most who do that use just a few expletives, typically you've used a number of frothy paragraphs. As far as I'm concerned the sentiment is just the same.

We're a community here, and if you feel so much contempt for it because it hasn't taken up all of your views quickly or clearly enough, then there is only one answer. By writing this post I've given you far more lee-way than we usually give people who personally attack G&GR. What happens next is up to you.

 

[Bardon]

My take on if Deans will go now or later is that IF the ARU feel that he's no longer up for the task then they need to let him go now. Yes it will mean a caretaker coach for the rest of the RC but no matter if it's RD or a caretaker in charge I don't think anyone is going to judge this RC as a success so what's to lose.

It's all about time to me, giving themselves the opportunity to conduct a through search for the new man and going through the process of getting him on board ASAP. If they get their man early and agree that he'll take over after the RC then there's an opportunity for him to attending training and games as an observer and to be able to make assessments not only on players but also on the assistant coaches. If he identified coaches he felt needed replacing then again there is time to get new guys in.

Additionally it also gives more time to the club/franchise the new coach comes from to replace them or to make an assessment if the coaches there already are up to the task. This is important given the overwhelming sentiment among supporters that the next coach should be an Australian and the fact that there's one standout candidate who's currently with an Aus super franchise.

If the ARU don't let him go now then logic would dictate that the ARU need more convincing that he's not the man for the job. Please note at this point I am not suggesting that the ARU think or act logically, I am simply writing my post from a logical standpoint. If the SA games go badly and they are still not convinced that he needs to go then like doubting Thomas they'll only be convinced when they put their hand into the gaping wound that would be a defeat to Argentina.