The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[convenient wisdom]

Wow, just came across this thread and its great to see so many people care so much for our game with so many intelligent posts.
Let's reflect on history for a moment, except for a brief time in the late 90's / early 00's we have never been world leaders so the idea of Aus teams coming 1 to 5 in Super 15 is absurd and is missing the point completely. To win everything is not the point.( well outside Shore and Mosman that is)
Rugby is not a business, focusing on growth, KPIs, 10 year plans and vision statements. Its a way of life, its an exuberant expression of emotion and energy, a synergy of courage, precision, daring risk and breathless excitement.
It is among sports the ultimate team game, and as a pastime it teaches us to win with humility and to lose with dignity. It brings people together like no other code can.
I played all my career as an amateur, and I have seen the game change so much since boys and their urgers (parents, managers, coaches) have decided that Rugby could be a "career".
Sadly, if lads are not pro by 21 or 22, most give up, thinking they are a failure, without tasting the wonderful benefits the game can give. Look at the average age of premier Rugby / Shute teams compared to the 80s and 90s.
I think this new idea just sells out a little more of the soul of rugby, it sends the message that you have to win to be relevant, and that money can buy success and happiness.

 

[southsider]

That is the point of most of the posts in this thread. The pathways are broken.

I do think there are enough quality players, but the step from Shute, or the other club competitions is just too great and some that are drafted in just get burnt like a Timana Tahu at test level. Thrown to the wolves and assessed as not being up to the task and discarded all in 30-40 minutes.

Just look at the Tahs for the last 10 years pre B. Foley. They have struggled to find a dominant 10. Part of that was been the shocking coaching and game plans that were about minimising risk (notice a similarity here) and not losing games instead of having a go and winning. In that time they played a quasi conservative game plan but attempted to play running backlines and 10s. Then they went fully risk aversion in the Hickey and Foley eras. In that time three 10s who topped the Shute Shield for point scoring and played great conservative Rugby and one running 10 didn't get a decent shot at Super Rugby. In fact 2 couldn't even crack the Super squad even though they topped the Shute year after year. Those two are Chris Malone and Dan Parkes. Since they left Australia Dan Parkes was capped for Scotland and played a full professional career in Scotland while Malone played and excelled in France. Now these two "slipped" through the developmental pathways in Australia. How?

There are 18 players and more with the potential to make the step. Are they ready to step up tomorrow, some will, most won't and will be discarded and not developed any further, because of the broken pathways. I can name props from club land that have shunted Wallaby props around the park in the scrum and out played them in the loose, but where are they, nowhere because the contracts are all taken up and there is no tier beneath for those blokes to show case their talent.

As for female Rugby, when was the last time you saw an article in paper. Where are the pathways for women. Basically unless somebody in a position of power or connected to such sees you on a good day you will go nowhere.

Yea you may have a point with Dan Parkes, have absolutely no idea who the other fella is though. But most of your argument is more based on selections than anything else and that just depends on who the coach is. But im still stuggling to think of 18 real proper players with potential to be super players, I get what your saying about broken pathways but we are going to have these spots available as of next year and as of next year I don't think there are the 18 born and bred aussies ready to step up hence the need for imports, its a short to medium term solution till the bigger problem can be addressed

A couple of weeks ago actually in the local paper!! (but besides that never :/) I believe the girls actually have it easier than guys, you play for a club, go to those gala days etc like they have at riverview, then get picked for your state? (I think they have state level) then go to wallaroos. I think its pretty clear path they need to follow and a lot more transparent in selection than mens just needs more promotion and greater growth.

 

[Gnostic]

I think you will find southsider that most of the avid Club followers here and the Junior followers could name 18 talented young players and not so young ones who are of Super potential. It isn't all down to selections. The problem isn't simple, but to my mind the primary issues remain the lack of a meaningful tier below Super level as the Club game has been too devalued and watered down and the contracting system. Parkes and Malone (some stats for you to show how prodigious he was with the boot http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-1029.html) never even got a look in in Australia after topping the Shute Shield each year. Why because the Tahs had already contracted players like Halangahu.

 

[ChargerWA]

Nothing has ever been built from the top down. It makes no sense to put money in near the top hoping the bottom will somehow fix its self.

 

[convenient wisdom]

Light Bulb moment folks, I've had an epiphany. Bill Pulver and the boys at the ARU see the super franchises as just like big GPS schools.....when you need some more talent, cheque books out and ship em in, but not for grade 8,9,10,-- just get em here for the 1st XV......and win.. simple really. I don't blame them for thinking that way, its how their brains have been conditioned. They can't help being themselves. My old school didn't have sporrting scholarships, but we were a school of excellence for car theft and teenage pregnancy !

 

[southsider]

I think you will find southsider that most of the avid Club followers here and the Junior followers could name 18 talented young players and not so young ones who are of Super potential. It isn't all down to selections. The problem isn't simple, but to my mind the primary issues remain the lack of a meaningful tier below Super level as the Club game has been too devalued and watered down and the contracting system. Parkes and Malone (some stats for you to show how prodigious he was with the boot http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-1029.html) never even got a look in in Australia after topping the Shute Shield each year. Why because the Tahs had already contracted players like Halangahu.

well it does sound like it is selection based, if there are 18 players with real proper potential id like to see them because the squad members that the force and rebels have currently definatley arnt living up to their worth

of course a 3rd tier would help raise the bar and bridge the gap but the simple fact of the matter is there isn't one at the moment so we need players who can slot straight into super squads

From the games I saw Halangahu play in ss he was a very dominant player for uni, if he played there full time im sure he'd have gone close to topping ss pointscorers too. He was a solid squad member for the tahs and unfortunately at that time parkes would have been on the radar there were only 3-4 super teams. Now theres 5 and results would suggest we arnt quite copping with it.

 

[Pfitzy]

Chris Malone and Dan Parkes. Since they left Australia Dan Parkes was capped for Scotland and played a full professional career in Scotland while Malone played and excelled in France.

Manny Edmonds also excelled in France, but was flaky here.

The answer to your question is NSW rugby has crap talent identification and too much political backroom infighting.

 

[Gnostic]

I will list for you a few players (mainly from Randwick for obvious reasons) that I have seen in the last few years that haven't got a lot of time or much development simply because there is no space for development in Super Rugby squads. These are players with huge talent but just haven't blossomed immediately, they needed more work and more high level game time, in some cases arrived with a roar and then faded to be discarded. If depth was a problem they should be at that next tier.

AJ Gilbert (7)
Selala Lam (6,8,7)
John Fonokofalafi (Hooker)
Clinton Sills (Winger/13)
Lotu Taukeaiho (Prop)

There you go, some aren't recent, as in this year, but that is just off the top of my head in a couple of minutes.

 

[Gnostic]

Manny Edmonds also excelled in France, but was flaky here.

The answer to your question is NSW rugby has crap talent identification and too much political backroom infighting.

I would argue that Manny didn't get a solid go and the game plans were a mish mash of conservative and expansive. It was all a bit disjointed in Tahland until this year. You could also mention Tim Donnelly.

 

[southsider]

I would argue that Manny didn't get a solid go and the game plans were a mish mash of conservative and expansive. It was all a bit disjointed in Tahland until this year. You could also mention Tim Donnelly.

phoar that's pushing it saying tim Donnelly was of super standard

 

[Gnostic]

He was a running 10 with a very good plae kick picked in a largely conservative game plan. A bit like Cooper being picked to play a risk averse plan. Just doesn't work. Donnelly was a good 10.

 

[southsider]

He was a running 10 with a very good plae kick picked in a largely conservative game plan. A bit like Cooper being picked to play a risk averse plan. Just doesn't work. Donnelly was a good 10.

mmm ill take your word seeing as I was pretty young at the time he was around but I never though he was a decent player....could be wrong though

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

My old school didn't have sporrting scholarships, but we were a school of excellence for car theft and teenage pregnancy !

For a Boy's Boarding School, that's just alarming.

 

[southsider]

I will list for you a few players (mainly from Randwick for obvious reasons) that I have seen in the last few years that haven't got a lot of time or much development simply because there is no space for development in Super Rugby squads. These are players with huge talent but just haven't blossomed immediately, they needed more work and more high level game time, in some cases arrived with a roar and then faded to be discarded. If depth was a problem they should be at that next tier.

AJ Gilbert (7)
Selala Lam (6,8,7)
John Fonokofalafi (Hooker)
Clinton Sills (Winger/13)
Lotu Taukeaiho (Prop)

There you go, some aren't recent, as in this year, but that is just off the top of my head in a couple of minutes.

but are these guys really better/shown more talent than the players that were picked over them?

I think most people would agree AJ is a strong SS player and good for academy style games but just isn't up to playing number 7 in super rugby week in and out.

Lala has had injury problems for a lot of his career which I believe has stopped him so far from higher honours

Sills was never going to make it, he was fast but that's all he had going for him, could've made something of 7's but no way is he super rugby material, couldn't even cope playing nsw cup league from what I heard and I don't think he ever pinned down a first grade spot at the wicks did he?

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Lets ignore the wholesale poaching issue for moment.

What are the ARU trying to achieve here. Strengthen the Force and Rebels in the short term by broadening the net for talent while possibly helping the Wallabies, seems fair enough, but in practice I can't see that working.

The rule specifically excludes the BoDs or Habana sof the world doing stint in the Australia so they are out. (not that the ARU is flush with money is any case).

So you are stuck with two possible types of players. The ITM/Currie Cup journeymen (Toby Lynne) or the projects (Ettienne Oosthuizen).

The Lynnes of the world will strengthen the squad, but I can't see them turning losses into wins at Super level. In any case they are unlikely to ever seriously challenge for Wallaby spots, so the requirement that they must not be disqualified for selection is unnecessary.

The Oosthuizens require patience (which the Force and Rebels can't afford) and require that the Aussie scouts sees something that the local pro teams miss. I am not denying that these players exist, but I find it unlikely that there 18 of these guys running around.

What about PI players? Well most of the Samoa squad are NZers who realise that they won't make it as an All Black squad, so you are looking for something very particular. A player that is not a New Zealander, who hasn't signed with a NH team, has talent and ability, but hasn't been capped yet. Good luck.

Totally overthinking this... No matter where the players come from, if the Clubs are not allowed to recruit them, they will do nothing. If they are allowed to recruit according to the new rules, they will do something - we don't know what, but something is better than nothing.

We can do it - case in Point: Willie Ofehenguae.

If the French Top 14 teams are doing a better job of recruiting, then there is the STARTING Point for the Rebs and Force...

Its not the best idea since E=MC2, but its okay for now - and I am sure we'll see the number of foreign players reduced over time, on a sliding scale... that is ok.

Much more productive to look more closely at the denizens of the NSWRU and identify those who wrap the place tight in politics and backstabbing - (so tightly that it cannot function as a Rugby Club), and label them for Surgical Removal. If the NSWRU listened to its Shute Shield Teams and primary Juniors Programmes (and supported them) it would have ALL the juniors it could ever need.

 

[Gnostic]

but are these guys really better/shown more talent than the players that were picked over them?

I think most people would agree AJ is a strong SS player and good for academy style games but just isn't up to playing number 7 in super rugby week in and out.

Lala has had injury problems for a lot of his career which I believe has stopped him so far from higher honours

Sills was never going to make it, he was fast but that's all he had going for him, could've made something of 7's but no way is he super rugby material, couldn't even cope playing nsw cup league from what I heard and I don't think he ever pinned down a first grade spot at the wicks did he?

AJ hasn't had a sustained chance at Super Level for a player that dominates at Shute. That is my point.

Lala has had injury issues but then so has Palu, he has been carried for seasons even with the major injuries, Lala has had a couple of cameos at Super Level.

Sills - he held down a starting spot for a while at the Wicks and again just didn't get any development at that higher level. Add to that the Wicks have struggled in recent years with development. But back to my point he hasn't had a go or even trained at a higher level so how do we know? He certainly had the goods at Shute.

You don't mention my other two examples of Fonokofalafi and Taukeaiho, largely because I expect you don't even recognise their names. Together with Kepu at THP and with only Mowen as the other Super forward in the pack that front row demolished the Eastwood pack in the 2010 Shute Shield Semi, which featured Ben Robinson, Fitzpatrick, Alexander and Ben Hand in the pack.

We could argue the individual players, but my point is there are options out there that just aren't getting the exposure.

 

[Dan54]

On first reading, Dan, I thought you were being ironic but then I noticed you are a Kiwi.
.

Yep Bruce, I just not sure what the whole Mossman area hate thing is, like I said I don't know where or what it is, and like you said I a kiwi, and I never really heard of one little area?? being blamed for downfall of a country's rugby before. Though I may have missed point!!

 

[Dan54]

AB's should sign that kid up, never seen a u11 pass 20-25m before Coach should also sack whoever was playing 5/8 for standing 20-25m away from his halfback, terrible positioning!

Was actually a skip pass to 12, or whoever was standing at 12s spot. My son used to have a coach at secondary school in NZ, who used to reckon if he couldn't hit a target on goaline while he stood on 22, he should play elsewhere but at 9.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yep Bruce, I just not sure what the whole Mossman area hate thing is, like I said I don't know where or what it is, and like you said I a kiwi, and I never really heard of one little area?? being blamed for downfall of a country's rugby before. Though I may have missed point!!

It's not a hate thing. I love Mosman and would move there tomorrow is the missus would agree.
Mosman is the largest junior club in Oz.
People who live in Mosman often send their sons to private schools. Generally rugby is strong in private schools.
The connection between Mosman, both as a club and a suburb, and the ARU is almost unbelievable - I can elaborate if you want.
The perception of many of us is that the connection is so strong that the ARU thinks the game is as healthy in other parts of the country as it appears to be in Mosman. This is considered by many to be incorrect.
We would like the ARU to have a look at, for instance, Western Sydney and then put some resources in there, and places like it rather than thinking that Balmoral Oval (Mosman juniors home ground) on a Sunday is typical of the game elsewhere.

http://localstats.qpzm.com.au/stats/nsw/sydney/lower-north-shore/mosman



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[convenient wisdom]

For a Boy's Boarding School, that's just alarming.

No silver spoon here old mates, bogan roots.