Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
Very probably, Ted, along with global warming and the current obsession with waxing.
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The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby
- Thread starter Bruce Ross
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Very probably, Ted, along with global warming and the current obsession with waxing.
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Ted S Hunter
Peter Burge (5)
Rugby is no doubt the course of most of the worlds problems, however in my mind my previous post presents one of two problems:
1. Sydney Uni has nailed it, and should have its board hired as the NSWRU board and implement this plan Sydney wide;
or
2. Sydney Uni's ability to lure players when other lcubs do not have the facilities/financial backing to compete should be stopped so that clubs can compete in what is still essentially an ameteur market.
(sydney uni is just the example, Randwick, Southern Districts, Easts could all be inserted, Uni are just the more well known exponent).
I can see merit on both sides, and the finger of blame lays spread accross a wide pool. I am more trying to highlight that we are talking about what the Pulvernator can do to fix Aussie rugby, well it starts here with the development pathway of getting our juniors and schoolboys to the next step, and creating an equal competition to ensure their proper development. IMO, that starts with the State Championships, flows through to the U18 competition/schoolboys, then onto to premier rugby, becuase it has been made clear a serious 3rd teir (ahla the ARC) isn't going to happen again!
1. Sydney Uni has nailed it, and should have its board hired as the NSWRU board and implement this plan Sydney wide;
or
2. Sydney Uni's ability to lure players when other lcubs do not have the facilities/financial backing to compete should be stopped so that clubs can compete in what is still essentially an ameteur market.
(sydney uni is just the example, Randwick, Southern Districts, Easts could all be inserted, Uni are just the more well known exponent).
I can see merit on both sides, and the finger of blame lays spread accross a wide pool. I am more trying to highlight that we are talking about what the Pulvernator can do to fix Aussie rugby, well it starts here with the development pathway of getting our juniors and schoolboys to the next step, and creating an equal competition to ensure their proper development. IMO, that starts with the State Championships, flows through to the U18 competition/schoolboys, then onto to premier rugby, becuase it has been made clear a serious 3rd teir (ahla the ARC) isn't going to happen again!
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
In the case of Easts I think you need to search out some posts elsewhere that show how dire their recent financial position has been.
I dont really understand Randwick's continued ability to attract and (I assume) pay big names given their widely reported financial problems - perhaps they have a benevolent benefactor.
I believe the Hobbits did have just such benefactor but his benevolence ran out before the money did: they seem to be doing better as a club than at any time in the last 40 years.
When you look at Sydney Uni Colts 1's and see a points differential of +499 you can see how far ahead of the game they are: after 9 rounds 590 for and 91 against.
They are averaging better than 60 points per game: who is that helping?
But what do you do about it?
southsider
Arch Winning (36)
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
And a lot of people put in a lot of hard work to keep this going - without having to bus in 'recruits' from all parts of Sydney. All home grown and locally developed talent.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
The Harlequins are a good story.From nothing about 8? years ago, they got to a stage where they fielded 5 teams in the 12's last year.(According to a parent in that age group)
southsider
Arch Winning (36)
that's insane! although if theres that many kids do you think its worth expanding and re-establishing some old clubs or starting some new ones?
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
That might be why Allambie has sprung back to life?
But again, that's just what a parent told me,so I wouldn't go to war based on it's accuracy, if you know what I mean.
But again, that's just what a parent told me,so I wouldn't go to war based on it's accuracy, if you know what I mean.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
They've done so well they've almost put North Curl Curl junior league out of business.
It's possible to take on league and win at junior level - NSWRU/ARU are you out there?
Grass roots to Bill Pulver, do you have your ears on?
The Galah
Darby Loudon (17)
No you haven't and Allambie only has 2 age groups 6's and 8's ! Also St Augustine's creams a lot off - did any of their players feature in 17's?
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Can't speak for the whole team, but from the Sydney 17s trialists, Kaplan, Williams and Afu all at Augustines. Kaplan and Williams have both played Manly juniors since minis.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Look, I'm a long time critic of Uni, but trying to shit on success is just bollocks. Yes, it is extremely difficult to try an emulate that success when you don't have the money or acumen, but you must try to find a way to do it on your own terms.
The problem is not Uni, its that rugby in this nation still has a massive bias towards its establishment and doesn't have the resources to branch out. This will continue until the following conditions are met:
1) Rugby other than Tests is shown on FTA TV at a reasonable hour
2) Rugby at all levels is more saleable. We can sit in our little ivory tower and say we don't want the bogans who don't understand the rules, but that inherently limits our domestic marketability, when we have so much to offer. The main obstacle is that no-one else in the world has a congested sports market in such a small population. Hence the Law Makers don't give a fuck what challenges the ARU faces, as long as the game grows globally - and it will with or without our contribution.
Look at NZ - their market is saturated, and they complain when players go offshore for Super Rugby contracts as a result (though a lot of them don't understand this, believing loyalty to the black jersey overrides financial concerns or trying to make a reputation from your talents).
To take this further, yes Deans and his evil game plans don't help the situation - if the Wallabies could pull out regular OMFG moments, it would help, but you can't rely on that when the IRB hold the game by the short and curlies, and the referees are their own entity.
The problem is not Uni, its that rugby in this nation still has a massive bias towards its establishment and doesn't have the resources to branch out. This will continue until the following conditions are met:
1) Rugby other than Tests is shown on FTA TV at a reasonable hour
2) Rugby at all levels is more saleable. We can sit in our little ivory tower and say we don't want the bogans who don't understand the rules, but that inherently limits our domestic marketability, when we have so much to offer. The main obstacle is that no-one else in the world has a congested sports market in such a small population. Hence the Law Makers don't give a fuck what challenges the ARU faces, as long as the game grows globally - and it will with or without our contribution.
Look at NZ - their market is saturated, and they complain when players go offshore for Super Rugby contracts as a result (though a lot of them don't understand this, believing loyalty to the black jersey overrides financial concerns or trying to make a reputation from your talents).
To take this further, yes Deans and his evil game plans don't help the situation - if the Wallabies could pull out regular OMFG moments, it would help, but you can't rely on that when the IRB hold the game by the short and curlies, and the referees are their own entity.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Just out of curiosity, was AJ Gilbert not in the Reds system for a number of years without ever making a spot his own? This obviously didn't help being behind Croft, but it's not as though he was waded through unseen and untested. He was also seen in the ARC if I remember correctly.
I think people like yourself and Bruce who have are invested heavily in the club system see this as a blight on the clubs, however one needs to be practical. The Force and the Rebels have struggled, continue to struggle, and don't look like not struggling any time soon. Barring the odd gem, a number of players that have been continually overlooked by the other teams aren't going to be the difference for them. As people have stated, there are a number of very average Super Rugby players who have shown to be quite dominant at Shute Shield level when they have returned, so it's not unreasonable to expect other dominant players may only make average Super Rugby players. You only have to look at the combined country team against the British and Irish Lions. This was loaded with club players and EPS squad players yet failed to perform as well as NSW Country did in 2001. It doesn't appear their are a number of battle hardened, Super Rugby players, waiting in the wings ready to go. Tim Davidson is probably the number one example for somebody like myself with minimal intimate knowledge of the Shute Shield. He appears to be one of the best credentialed, and experience Shute Shield players going around (Not sure if he has played in 2013 though), yet has not been able to cement any position at the Rebels, beyond being an injury replacement. Obviously appeared to be a great prospect from what he has shown in Shute Shield, yet after years of plying his trade at that level has shown to be not quite effective at Super Rugby level. It seems to me that if a player like him has been unable to make a compelling case at Super Rugby level, there cannot be a great deal more that obviously would. Professionalism has slowly dimished the club comps to the point where now it seems the top 10% is not as good in comparision to the nation's top 10% as it once was and subsequently the bottom 10% also. The 80% in the middle probably hasn't changed a great deal but the playing level one would imagine, may not be what it was when there were only 66 professional players playing Super Rugby each week for a shortened season. Now it is 110 playing a longer season so those players at the clubs also get less chance to play against the next level of opposition than they did in the Super 12 and Super 14 era.
Also the internationals like Ged Robinson, Jason Woodward and Gareth Delve have been some of the Rebels best players in their history, and have basically seamlessly slotted in. I agree perhaps a limit of 5 would be better, however I don't beleive the Rebels even used all of their allowable import roster spots initially so teams may opt for cheaper, local players with less market currency who they consider to be of much value on the field as an import journeyman, focusing their salary cap space on a couple of key recruits (the JOC (James O'Connor)'s, Higginbothams and Beales of the world) anyway. In the salary cap era, it's not like teams are happy to fritter away their money on players when they have equal quality players in Australia, likely to sign for less.
A long term approach needs to be taken. Growing rugby is all about junior participation and historically, a quality professional/representitive team is part of the pathway of attracting juniors. The way the Rebels are performing at the moment, they aren't going to take a lot of kids away from AFL.
The Force have had a little less luck with Ripia and Pretorious, but neither were factors that they could realistically forsee. This is the only solution that will allow them to immediately add Super Rugby ready players to their rosters, with the help of this building their support, which will build the desire for kids to play at junior level, which will lead to a larger talent pool eventually.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
I was at a Darling Downs game over the weekend. While Rangers were given USQ a towelling in A-Grade, the ref's coach noted that most of the clubs in the comp were struggling. His reasoning - Because of the mining boom and the plethora of fly-in fly-out, 24/7 rosters. He might have a point.
From a Rangers perspective we have a few players who don't play for A-Grade as they can not make training, or their rosters are such that they are only around every second week, or can't travel because they have to work....... etc etc. (I would also like to point out that there are also a few players who don't travel because they couldn't be bothered & don't turn up to training for the same reason but that is a whole other discussion). There are also a few guys out there I am sure who don't play because they feel that they are not around enough so therefore feel they can't/shouldn't commit. It has certainly become a problem this season when we have had 7 major (career ending or season ending) injuries and have only just got halfway though the season.
I supose my point is that we don't know how to solve the problem & I would be fairly sure that we are not the only ones in the rapidly sinking boat. How do you get more people turning up week-in week-out to training & playing? Do our city cousins have the same problem?
One thing that I would like to ask. For those clubs that are lucky enough to have Super Rugby Players on their books - are these players paid by the club? I have a vague idea but just need to have some information before I shoot my mouth off. ('Not that it has stopped you before' I hear you say...)
From a Rangers perspective we have a few players who don't play for A-Grade as they can not make training, or their rosters are such that they are only around every second week, or can't travel because they have to work....... etc etc. (I would also like to point out that there are also a few players who don't travel because they couldn't be bothered & don't turn up to training for the same reason but that is a whole other discussion). There are also a few guys out there I am sure who don't play because they feel that they are not around enough so therefore feel they can't/shouldn't commit. It has certainly become a problem this season when we have had 7 major (career ending or season ending) injuries and have only just got halfway though the season.
I supose my point is that we don't know how to solve the problem & I would be fairly sure that we are not the only ones in the rapidly sinking boat. How do you get more people turning up week-in week-out to training & playing? Do our city cousins have the same problem?
One thing that I would like to ask. For those clubs that are lucky enough to have Super Rugby Players on their books - are these players paid by the club? I have a vague idea but just need to have some information before I shoot my mouth off. ('Not that it has stopped you before' I hear you say...)
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Train Without a Station - in reply to your obviously well thought out post I would point out one player who is a great example of the undeveloped talent that is waiting in many clubs around the country. Ben Mowen. As with other examples I gave in many years at the Reds and Tahs Mowen couldn't get a consistent start or even much time off the bench until last year. He need development and time investment.
I fully agree there are few Club players ready to step straight into the Super level, they come rarely, but my point is there are more than a few who could make it with the proper development. The problem is the Super Squad system is so restrictive that these players cannot take a spot to develop and the ETS spots seem to get tied up by so many players who also never get a start. Example there is Peterson at the Tahs, he has been in the ETS for what 3 years and to my memory he has never even made an appearance from the bench and now along comes Skelton and bang is straight into the starting side and makes a fist of it. The comment isn't about Skelton, it is about the development spot that Peterson has held for all those years and the opportunities and talent that may well have been missed along the way.
To my mind the Club comp. must be revitalised and developed as the genuine 3rd tier simply to bypass it and further erode the foundation level of Australian Rugby just doesn't sit right with me.
I fully agree there are few Club players ready to step straight into the Super level, they come rarely, but my point is there are more than a few who could make it with the proper development. The problem is the Super Squad system is so restrictive that these players cannot take a spot to develop and the ETS spots seem to get tied up by so many players who also never get a start. Example there is Peterson at the Tahs, he has been in the ETS for what 3 years and to my memory he has never even made an appearance from the bench and now along comes Skelton and bang is straight into the starting side and makes a fist of it. The comment isn't about Skelton, it is about the development spot that Peterson has held for all those years and the opportunities and talent that may well have been missed along the way.
To my mind the Club comp. must be revitalised and developed as the genuine 3rd tier simply to bypass it and further erode the foundation level of Australian Rugby just doesn't sit right with me.
Cat_A
Arch Winning (36)
suckerforred I couldn't speak for other clubs but the Super Rugby players at Uni don't get paid in $$.
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
Nothing we don't already know but a reasonable summation, for those outside our borders, on the issues Australian rugby faces.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d57bb02-d316-11e2-aac2-00144feab7de.html#axzz2WX5e64u4
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6d57bb02-d316-11e2-aac2-00144feab7de.html#axzz2WX5e64u4
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
Yesterday supersport.com had a story titled, "Aus fans asked to be realistic", which extensively quoted the Pulveriser. Positively Churchillean he was. This is the sort of leadership we rugby tragics have been craving:
"We want to win it, we basically would like to win the Rugby Championships, we would like to win the Bledisloe Cup, but we're ranked three, so you have to be realistic about expectations.
"But, new coach, wonderful group of young players, everything is possible."
That's the way, Bill. Set the bar on expectations so low that unless we get beaten by the Argies you get a pass mark.
"we basically would like to win"; "we would like to win". I'd like to be picked up by a young goer but as Bill so sagely points out, "you have to be realistic about expectations."
"everything is possible." That's what frightens me.
"Our competition structures are not robust enough, our pathways are not robust enough, so there's a lot of strategic thought being put in to developing the right strategies, right the way from under-15s to the Wallabies."
That's the sort of wisdom you pick up on your way to becoming "a multi-millionaire businessman". But basically it's just common sense. If you are about "developing the right strategies" it's a good idea to be putting in "a lot of strategic thought."
"I do worry, we operate in the world's most competitive winter sports market and our competitors are well-funded and well-run,"
I share your worry about that, Bill, but there must be some way we can overcome that disadvantage.
"He coaches the way Australians like to see the game played, smart, creative running rugby."
If he keeps rabbiting on about "smart, creative running rugby", perhaps Mrs Pulver could do us all a favour and strangle him in his sleep. There'd be no way she'd even be charged, let alone convicted.
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"We want to win it, we basically would like to win the Rugby Championships, we would like to win the Bledisloe Cup, but we're ranked three, so you have to be realistic about expectations.
"But, new coach, wonderful group of young players, everything is possible."
That's the way, Bill. Set the bar on expectations so low that unless we get beaten by the Argies you get a pass mark.
"we basically would like to win"; "we would like to win". I'd like to be picked up by a young goer but as Bill so sagely points out, "you have to be realistic about expectations."
"everything is possible." That's what frightens me.
"Our competition structures are not robust enough, our pathways are not robust enough, so there's a lot of strategic thought being put in to developing the right strategies, right the way from under-15s to the Wallabies."
That's the sort of wisdom you pick up on your way to becoming "a multi-millionaire businessman". But basically it's just common sense. If you are about "developing the right strategies" it's a good idea to be putting in "a lot of strategic thought."
"I do worry, we operate in the world's most competitive winter sports market and our competitors are well-funded and well-run,"
I share your worry about that, Bill, but there must be some way we can overcome that disadvantage.
"He coaches the way Australians like to see the game played, smart, creative running rugby."
If he keeps rabbiting on about "smart, creative running rugby", perhaps Mrs Pulver could do us all a favour and strangle him in his sleep. There'd be no way she'd even be charged, let alone convicted.
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
This worried me the most: it could be interpreted as also lowering expectations by admitting that being well run is where the other winter sports have the advantage.
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