The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[Dan54]

IS, I agree with your comments strongly. I have said a number of times I can't belive the number of professional players here, that can't throw a 20 metre pass on the run (ok I pointing at Rob Horne etc).
I actually had to call my wife and bore her while watching a news thing on the net couple of days back, it was actually about Weepu and a couple of ABs doing a bit of promotional work at a kids club rugby day. It shows Weepu running the touch flag, but what got me is behind him in the u11 game I saw a young halfback pick up ball at breakdown and send out a 20-25m pass-to his right. I know the kid took a step, but pleased me to see he had been coached to pass to the right, a lot of s15 players struggle to do it, and it one of things we miss with all the lets have moves, learn the f****n basics first!!!!

 

[Quick Hands]

How can you say that a system that sees the former CEO, the new CEO and the coach all live in 1 suburb and that sees a worldwide search produce as a new CEO the chairman's best mate since they were half and 5/8 at school, not to mention members of the same golf club, needs to consider revision?


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And therein lies a big part of the problem. In the world of Mosman juniors and Shore rugby everything is going well. No-one plays league, a few people play soccer (wouldn't fit in playing rugby anyway, sniff) and the parents all stand around and tell stories of their school days and their latest corporate success.

The world that they inhabit bears no resemblence to the experience of most grass roots rugby people. They probably even believe the "record" participation statistics.

Back in the real world, I look back a my junior rugby experience in the early 70s and compare it to my son's at the moment. Back then junior club rugby ran parallel to school rugby - they were both played on Saturdays and very few played both. Junior rugby on the north shore and northern beaches switched to Sunday junior rugby about 12-15 years ago, the reason being they could hardly field any teams and playing on Sundays allowed the GPS/CAS boys to play. No extra players, just a whole lot of boys playing 2 matches.

Add to that the fact that there has been a huge influx of NZ, Pacific Islander, SA and British immigrants who have bolstered the numbers. Early 70s this was not the case, but now without those boys many teams would be unviable. Rugby has totally lost a generation of players to other sports (mostly league and in some cases soccer)- I'm talking about the sons of the boys that I played with. Those who have moved into non-rugby areas have to play league as there is no junior rugby option for them. But in the cocoon of Mosman and Shore, this is not part of the reality.

Rant over.

 

[Dan54]

Sound like to me QH that Mosman juniors and Shore rugby have got it sorted and rugby people in other areas should try and emulate them!!!

 

[southsider]

IS, I agree with your comments strongly. I have said a number of times I can't belive the number of professional players here, that can't throw a 20 metre pass on the run (ok I pointing at Rob Horne etc).
I actually had to call my wife and bore her while watching a news thing on the net couple of days back, it was actually about Weepu and a couple of ABs doing a bit of promotional work at a kids club rugby day. It shows Weepu running the touch flag, but what got me is behind him in the u11 game I saw a young halfback pick up ball at breakdown and send out a 20-25m pass-to his right. I know the kid took a step, but pleased me to see he had been coached to pass to the right, a lot of s15 players struggle to do it, and it one of things we miss with all the lets have moves, learn the f****n basics first!!!!

AB's should sign that kid up, never seen a u11 pass 20-25m before Coach should also sack whoever was playing 5/8 for standing 20-25m away from his halfback, terrible positioning!

 

[Bruce Ross]

In the world of Mosman juniors and Shore rugby everything is going well.

Sound like to me QH that Mosman juniors and Shore rugby have got it sorted and rugby people in other areas should try and emulate them!!!

On first reading, Dan, I thought you were being ironic but then I noticed you are a Kiwi.
.

 

[Sidbarret]

Lets ignore the wholesale poaching issue for moment.

What are the ARU trying to achieve here. Strengthen the Force and Rebels in the short term by broadening the net for talent while possibly helping the Wallabies, seems fair enough, but in practice I can't see that working.

The rule specifically excludes the BoDs or Habana sof the world doing stint in the Australia so they are out. (not that the ARU is flush with money is any case).

So you are stuck with two possible types of players. The ITM/Currie Cup journeymen (Toby Lynne) or the projects (Ettienne Oosthuizen).

The Lynnes of the world will strengthen the squad, but I can't see them turning losses into wins at Super level. In any case they are unlikely to ever seriously challenge for Wallaby spots, so the requirement that they must not be disqualified for selection is unnecessary.

The Oosthuizens require patience (which the Force and Rebels can't afford) and require that the Aussie scouts sees something that the local pro teams miss. I am not denying that these players exist, but I find it unlikely that there 18 of these guys running around.

What about PI players? Well most of the Samoa squad are NZers who realise that they won't make it as an All Black squad, so you are looking for something very particular. A player that is not a New Zealander, who hasn't signed with a NH team, has talent and ability, but hasn't been capped yet. Good luck.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What about PI players? Well most of the Samoa squad are NZers who realise that they won't make it as an All Black squad, so you are looking for something very particular. A player that is not a New Zealander, who hasn't signed with a NH team, has talent and ability, but hasn't been capped yet. Good luck.

Its even harder than you may think: i was in Samoa recently.
They had an U15 "national" team going to france for several months - paid for by, so far as we could tell, french top 14 teams.
Almost certainly this is to look at bolstering their ranks: maybe the french have better luck picking the next big thing at age 14 than we do!

 

[southsider]

The Lynnes of the world will strengthen the squad, but I can't see them turning losses into wins at Super level. In any case they are unlikely to ever seriously challenge for Wallaby spots, so the requirement that they must not be disqualified for selection is unnecessary.

Its all about creating depth though, which is where the force and rebels struggle, their starting teams are decent enough but when they bring on their reserves they are such a step down that it can influence the game between a win/lose or just losing/game blowing out. I think the reds in particular have excellent depth, their reserves arnt of excellent quality but they all bring something to the team. Having a couple more "Lynnes" in the rebels and force will go a long way to making those near losses that both teams have had on numerous occasions this year, into wins!

Having these guys will also up the quality of training sessions which will have a trickle down effect to academy players or squad players who train with the team, eventually turning them into better super rugby players and thus hopefully eliminating (eventually) the need for these imports.

 

[Sidbarret]

Its all about creating depth though, which is where the force and rebels struggle, their starting teams are decent enough but when they bring on their reserves they are such a step down that it can influence the game between a win/lose or just losing/game blowing out. I think the reds in particular have excellent depth, their reserves arnt of excellent quality but they all bring something to the team. Having a couple more "Lynnes" in the rebels and force will go a long way to making those near losses that both teams have had on numerous occasions this year, into wins!

Having these guys will also up the quality of training sessions which will have a trickle down effect to academy players or squad players who train with the team, eventually turning them into better super rugby players and thus hopefully eliminating (eventually) the need for these imports.

True, but...

Why limit the field to uncapped players, in this case it limits the potential signings without any direct benefit.

Secondly, mid table Top14, Aviva and Rabo teams are also in the market for these workhorses. The ARU is stepping into a market place where they will end up being out-bid or alternatively end up with sub-quality alternatives because that is all they can afford.

 

[southsider]

True, but.

Why limit the field to uncapped players, in this case it limits the potential signings without any direct benefit.

Secondly, mid table Top14, Aviva and Rabo teams are also in the market for these workhorses. The ARU is stepping into a market place where they will end up being out-bid or alternatively end up with sub-quality alternatives because that is all they can afford.

well youd imagine a capped player would cost more than a uncapped player anyway so I guess you could say its so they don't blow all their money on one big signing instead of building depth which is what the new rules were implemented for? And I guess the lure of potentially playing for the wallabies one day could be a big influence to these uncapped players, even if your a club journeyman id imagine they all still dream of playing international rugby, I know if I was a pro rugby player id give up a substancial pay increase even if there was the slightest chance id become a wallaby out of it.

The ARU is also looking after their own future too, their hoping by doing this that super teams will uncover some talent who will later on go on to play for the wallabies, make the wallabies a better team, win more games, which means more money for the ARU. Capped players may mean more $ for super teams but it has absolutely no benefit for the ARU as far as I know.

 

[Gnostic]

Its all about creating depth though, which is where the force and rebels struggle, their starting teams are decent enough but when they bring on their reserves they are such a step down that it can influence the game between a win/lose or just losing/game blowing out. I think the reds in particular have excellent depth, their reserves arnt of excellent quality but they all bring something to the team. Having a couple more "Lynnes" in the rebels and force will go a long way to making those near losses that both teams have had on numerous occasions this year, into wins!

Having these guys will also up the quality of training sessions which will have a trickle down effect to academy players or squad players who train with the team, eventually turning them into better super rugby players and thus hopefully eliminating (eventually) the need for these imports.

Southsider - I would disagree there. The Force yes, but that is afactor of a dire game plan as well, much like the Tahs in pre-Chieka times. As for the Rebels they have played their best Rugby with no "x Players" in their sides.

 

[southsider]

Southsider - I would disagree there. The Force yes, but that is afactor of a dire game plan as well, much like the Tahs in pre-Chieka times. As for the Rebels they have played their best Rugby with no "x Players" in their sides.

Sorry Gnostic im not 100% sure what your disagreeing with me about?

 

[Sidbarret]

well youd imagine a capped player would cost more than a uncapped player anyway so I guess you could say its so they don't blow all their money on one big signing instead of building depth which is what the new rules were implemented for? And I guess the lure of potentially playing for the wallabies one day could be a big influence to these uncapped players, even if your a club journeyman id imagine they all still dream of playing international rugby, I know if I was a pro rugby player id give up a substancial pay increase even if there was the slightest chance id become a wallaby out of it.

The ARU is also looking after their own future too, their hoping by doing this that super teams will uncover some talent who will later on go on to play for the wallabies, make the wallabies a better team, win more games, which means more money for the ARU. Capped players may mean more $ for super teams but it has absolutely no benefit for the ARU as far as I know.

Don't know about that. You are excluding the likes of Ross Kennedy, Alistaire Hargreaves, Jacques Potgieter, guys who are only really internationals in name only and their salary expectations won't necessarily be skewed by their fifteen minutes of fame. Truth is they should never have been selected to play international rugby, but fall comfortably in the category of journeyman that could help the weaker Super teams.

I am not sure about your second point either. I have a slight chuckle every time I see Simmons selected for wallabies, but overall the top Aussie players are a match for just about anyone. I don't see many Sean Maitlands out there who will give up their dream of playing for the All Blacks to throw their hat in with Australia. The chances of playing international rugby don't improve as much as moving to one of the Celtic nations (as Josh Strauss, Richardt Strauss and WP Nel have done recently).

 

[southsider]

Don't know about that. You are excluding the likes of Ross Kennedy, Alistaire Hargreaves, Jacques Potgieter, guys who are only really internationals in name only and their salary expectations won't necessarily be skewed by their fifteen minutes of fame. Truth is they should never have been selected to play international rugby, but fall comfortably in the category of journeyman that could help the weaker Super teams.

I am not sure about your second point either. I have a slight chuckle every time I see Simmons selected for wallabies, but overall the top Aussie players are a match for just about anyone. I don't see many Sean Maitlands out there who will give up their dream of playing for the All Blacks to throw their hat in with Australia. The chances of playing international rugby don't improve as much as moving to one of the Celtic nations (as Josh Strauss, Richardt Strauss and WP Nel have done recently).

That's true but i'd imagine those sort of player are in the minority, and the aru have to draw a line somewhere otherwise it'll be open slather and open up the whole "other players taking spots that could be filled with potential wallabies" which I think is a fair point, at least this way the aru are covering their ass and saying "well they may be able to play for us one day"

True again but there would be a lot of eligible kiwis/islanders who haven't got a shot for higher honour either through lack of identification or simply better players ahead of them, guess it provides a alternative pathway that may seem more appealing.

both valid points you've said though

 

[Quick Hands]

The fact that this conversation is even occurring should be a wake up call to the ARU. It seems to me to be an admission of abject failure to develop and grow the game in Australia. Not only in WA & Vic, but in the strongholds of Sydney and Brisbane.

Maybe we should just roll out the "Mosman Solution" as advocated (ironically I'm sure) by Dan54. But then again it only succeeds on the basis of having no opposition.

It's all just so depressing, we're now hoping that Tonga and Samoa will develop our talent.

 

[Gnostic]

Sorry Gnostic im not 100% sure what your disagreeing with me about?

Disagree regarding your statement that teams struggle through depth issues. Earlier in the thread I posted that there is a good depth of players in Australia, but because of the structures many do not get a chance to shine in Australia and many more head overseas and play much of their careers there without ever getting much of a go here.

 

[southsider]

Disagree regarding your statement that teams struggle through depth issues. Earlier in the thread I posted that there is a good depth of players in Australia, but because of the structures many do not get a chance to shine in Australia and many more head overseas and play much of their careers there without ever getting much of a go here.

fair enough depth of talent in Aus might not be the issue but I think there definatly is a issue with depth in super teams.

is it 18 players that will be brought in because of these new rules? Do you have 18 born and bred aussie players who would step up and be solid super rugby players?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

is it 18 players that will be brought in because of these new rules? Do you have 18 born and bred aussie players who would step up and be solid super rugby players?

If not, why not?
If not now, when?

 

[southsider]

If not, why not?
If not now, when?

no third tier, lack of player identification, lack of opportunities, other sports to compete with

pfft ive got as much idea as you do IS

 

[Gnostic]

That is the point of most of the posts in this thread. The pathways are broken.

I do think there are enough quality players, but the step from Shute, or the other club competitions is just too great and some that are drafted in just get burnt like a Timana Tahu at test level. Thrown to the wolves and assessed as not being up to the task and discarded all in 30-40 minutes.

Just look at the Tahs for the last 10 years pre B. Foley. They have struggled to find a dominant 10. Part of that was been the shocking coaching and game plans that were about minimising risk (notice a similarity here) and not losing games instead of having a go and winning. In that time they played a quasi conservative game plan but attempted to play running backlines and 10s. Then they went fully risk aversion in the Hickey and Foley eras. In that time three 10s who topped the Shute Shield for point scoring and played great conservative Rugby and one running 10 didn't get a decent shot at Super Rugby. In fact 2 couldn't even crack the Super squad even though they topped the Shute year after year. Those two are Chris Malone and Dan Parkes. Since they left Australia Dan Parkes was capped for Scotland and played a full professional career in Scotland while Malone played and excelled in France. Now these two "slipped" through the developmental pathways in Australia. How?

There are 18 players and more with the potential to make the step. Are they ready to step up tomorrow, some will, most won't and will be discarded and not developed any further, because of the broken pathways. I can name props from club land that have shunted Wallaby props around the park in the scrum and out played them in the loose, but where are they, nowhere because the contracts are all taken up and there is no tier beneath for those blokes to show case their talent.

As for female Rugby, when was the last time you saw an article in paper. Where are the pathways for women. Basically unless somebody in a position of power or connected to such sees you on a good day you will go nowhere.