The JOC (James O'Connor) Saga

[todd4]

Well to move away from that. He hasn't put pen to paper yet with the Rebels has he? Or is he still working out the ARU deal

It seems he still has to finalise his ARU deal.

Maybe he's doing some hard-ball negotiating with them?

 

[barbarian]

Not much love for JOC (James O'Connor) on twitter, especially from some Wallabies:

Gits - I have to do wats best for my brand!!??? #watthe #beturegretsayingthat ha ha

Drew - Was an interesting read in today's paper about what Force CEO Vern Reid had to say about @JamesOConnor832 contract negotiations.. #kpi's??

 

[tigerland12]

Force chief executive Vern Reid would not reveal the specific demands.

"It was things that we were unwilling to agree to, a combination of the term of the contract and somewhat related to the money," he said. "We considered those terms, his terms, and we made a decision that we are not prepared to meet the constraints that he and his lawyer were seeking to impose."

_The West Australian _understands that 20-year-old O'Connor insisted the club guarantee Force vice- captain and Wallaby flanker David Pocock would be kept on when his contract expires next year.

He also wanted the Force to ensure that coach Richard Graham recruited two international back-line stars and, specifically, an outside centre.

Another sticking point was the length of contract. O'Connor wanted one year with a second-year option that only he could trigger.

O'Connor's father, Warren, is closely involved in all of his son's deals, and Reid said: "It was essentially James' decision and whoever else is advising him on a personal level."

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/union/9650108/oconnor-asked-too-much/

Some of those things he wanted seem a bit strange and demanding. Especially the one about the two international outside backs.

 

[Riptide]

This sort of stuff is rubbish if the person isn't here to defend themselves. If you're going to muckrake at least provide a source.

Godfrey, I recognize that the mods wish to continue their excellent record of securing this forum for discussion that is genuinely civil (and I confess that I have transgressed on my brief time here) and a forum that is open to different viewpoints and fosters conflicting opinions on the game for which we all share a genuine love, but there surely is room to share information from non-public, accredited sources?! Should every player/coach be first given an opportunity to defend themselves against accusations they are not a saint?

For example, I've heard much about Cipriani. I know people who have known him very, very well for several years now and I've met him. I can assure you that he comes across every bit as the narcissistic, self-obsessed, 'up his own arse' toss-pot that could be highly disruptive to a collegial team ethos. Is that defined as "muckraking"? I can see why many might might think so, or then again is he simply fair game because he is a Pom, or it's ok because some gossip merchant like Growden has already hinted at it? Or is it muckraking when the G&GR podcast enumerates the number of women he has supposedly shagged while in Melbourne (fascinating stuff frankly, brilliant "radio" and I would truly love to know the inside sources for that).

And Godfrey, please, I want to get across that I'm not trying to be a smart-arse at all here. There should be no room for "Player X is a complete and utter c*Nt. I heard he buggers goats in his backyard on Sunday mornings while chanting Spice Girls lyrics" type of posts. I truly value this site for the excellent insights, analysis and obscure but valuable personal details that contributors offer up each and every day and would love to see those contributions continue to flow unfettered, and would not like to see it drowned in crap or personal invective directed at fellow posters or players. Respectfully, I just dont think the "stuff" mentioned by Tigerland 12 is "rubbish" or "muckraking."

And seriously, don't you think that there is more than enough evidence to suggest that young Mr. O'Connor has quite a high regard for himself. He is after all "building his brand" as he says so himself?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Slim, the issue with Giteau was a combination of personality issues plus his declining form. Had he been playing out of his skin, a lot of that would have been forgotten about.

As far as conducting negotiations in public, it's like most people in the public eye: things are tactically leaked to the press in order to send a message to the other side. We see it in business, politics, sport and other aspects of public life. The press are just the conduit through which this information is put out there and they love it. It sells papers after all. Some people appear to play that game very well and good luck to them. Others get schooled, as appears to be happening to James right now.

There were a couple of pretty scathing articles in The West this morning about it:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/union/9650108/oconnor-asked-too-much/

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/union/9649953/boy-wonders-demands-gave-force-no-choice/

 

[vikingbrad]

SMH now reporting that Rebels have secured his signature

http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/rebels-secure-oconnor-signature-20110615-1g2x5.html

Also love Drew Mitchell's follow-up tweets about Ben Mowen's KPIs, funny stuff.

 

[qwerty51]

I agree with everything you've said Riptide, it's part and parcel of being a professional sportsman.

 

[barbarian]

Yeah Riptide, I agree to a point. The problem can be the authenticity of the source. A vague personal insult preceeded by the words 'I have heard from a source that' doesn't make it any more acceptable, unless you are more specific with the source and insult. eg 'I have a source who is a fellow player, who said he is always sniping behind other people's backs, and talking over the top of others at team meetings'.

Obviously that is very specific but I am just trying to make a point. Simply saying 'I have heard he is an arrogant jerk' can do a bit more harm than good IMO.

 

[Happy]

I wonder if JOC (James O'Connor) knows or cares what all this is doing to his reputation, and his fan base. I know we enjoy the exploits on the field of players that we don't personally like (although I guess most of that is perception, as we don't really know most of them), but I can't help but think that a lot of fans will feel betrayed.

 

[RedsHappy]

I am already on record as being critical of JO'C and his advisers, managers, whatever wrt the manner by which they have led these tortuous 'negotiations' for many months whilst unquestionably affecting focus and stability within the Force as JO'C's current employers.

However:

- just days ago most posters here were congratulating JO'C as a player and expressing delight with his seeming decision to stay with the Force, yet, now that position has altered, and solely on the basis of a skilful PR action plan from RugbyWA, he's being derided as incontestably the guilty party who has acted arrogantly and greedily (or versions thereof) and indeed, congrats to that gutsy Force management for ending all discussions with him;

- all this, and we have heard absolutely zero of JO'C's version of events, or his perspective on his own personal strategy in this situation. What we have heard is the inevitably self-protecting and self-promoting version of events from RugbyWA who obviously decided a 'get on the front foot' media release was both smart and appropriate (I don't blame them for that, but let's not be naive as to the dynamics at play here);

- the Force has been going for 6 years without getting into the S1X finals. They have shamelessly and very prominently promoted JO'C as their prize star and if they have reaped a bout of egomaniacal behaviour from him, they are at least partly responsible for underpinning that at every turn in their commercial use of his talent and persona;

- JO'C is young, world class player who's smart enough to know that the Force need to significantly upgrade elements of its playing roster and equally hold on to its other top talent to stand any credible hope of breaking out of its 'coulda, mighta, maybe-one-day, never-quite-get-there' position within the S15. No talent of JO'C's calibre and young age, and with many good options, would want to sit in a franchise that never gets to the very top, and that he might demand some commitments from RugbyWA to improve the Force's chances might be disagreeable to some, but it's neither irrational nor unexpected, especially when the promotional spotlight is constantly upon him to deliver top billing and max game points for the Force;

- that he's egotistical, self-promoting, aware of his worth will be distasteful to some, but this is a harsh reality of top line, global sports when dealing with genuine star talent and franchises simply have to be clever and capable enough themselves to deal with star players like this and somehow get them to mutually acceptable outcomes. This won't be the first or last time a franchise has to grit its teeth and work with a brilliant 20 year old player who thinks he owns the world - that's the business sports franchises are in baby, suck it up or get out of it. Was RugbyWA smart to set JO'C a defined deadline to agree terms by? I'm not sure, that tactic can often badly backfire in complex deal-making situations where neither party is dominant - the S15 was over for the Force, it was not really essential for them to have signed JO'C by some immediate arbitrary date in June 2011;

- the hard business bottom line is that the Force needed JO'C more than JO'C needed them. Their crowd numbers and top line $ income are in linear decline, they have not held the Mitchells or Giteaus or even Crosses, and if they lose Pocock they will risk landing in a very precarious place as a commercially viable rugby franchise;

- when we see 81,000 fans at ANZ last night for SOO II, one asks: does rugby in competition with other codes need as many young, charismatic, promotable stars as it can get its hands on, and then hold them...I think the answer could be yes.

All I am arguing for here is some balance, a bit of understanding of the likely inner world of JO'C, and the consideration of the many factors at play in situations like this and that need to be weighed before a rushed - and very harsh - judgement re JO'C and his character and maturity is made.

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, I recognize that the mods wish to continue their excellent record of securing this forum for discussion that is genuinely civil (and I confess that I have transgressed on my brief time here) and a forum that is open to different viewpoints and fosters conflicting opinions on the game for which we all share a genuine love, but there surely is room to share information from non-public, accredited sources?! Should every player/coach be first given an opportunity to defend themselves against accusations they are not a saint?

It is just my opinion that when these sort of situations happen you have a bunch of people saying "I've heard he's this and that" without saying how they are in a position to know that, so it's baseless muckraking. The things you've said about Cipriani you have backed up by saying how you know them - that way people can make a judgement of how much store to put in what you are saying. I don't mean at all that people shouldn't be able to comment or give their opinion on what they've heard - but some degree of illumination of the source is required or it's rubbish. For example, I could just as easily say that I have heard that J'OC has been misrepresented and is actually a humble, charitable soul. It would get ignored because it's not negative.

 

[Ruggo]

My respect for Kurtley Beale has just grown even more. The dignity in how he handled the process is just outstanding in comparison too JOC (James O'Connor) and Quade's saga last year. Well done young man. Make no mistake about it, man is the key word here.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

RH, JOC (James O'Connor) has an opportunity to put forward his version of events. Nobody is stopping him from doing that and you never know, after all this has finished we may even hear it. You'll notice that myself and others have said that this whole saga reflects badly on JOC (James O'Connor), assuming there is some credence to what RugbyWA are saying.

Eventually one or both parties in a situation like this will get tired of it and call things off. There's nothing actually wrong with that's just business -- nothing personal. Because that is what all of this is, a business transaction between two parties.

And also can I remind you of the saga that was QC (Quade Cooper)'s negotiations last year? It's not just a problem at the Force.

 

[barbarian]

- just days ago most posters here were congratulating JO'C as a player and expressing delight with his seeming decision to stay with the Force, yet, now that position has altered, and solely on the basis of a skilful PR action plan from RugbyWA, he's being derided as incontestably the guilty party who has acted arrogantly and greedily (or versions thereof) and indeed, congrats to that gutsy Force management for ending all discussions with him;

Well the details of the negotiation process as put forward by the Force are pretty damning of JOC (James O'Connor) and his team. No denials have been made from JOC (James O'Connor) or anyone associated with him. He made a series of frankly ludicrous demands about recruiting and contract specifics that no right-minded business would accept.

- all this, and we have heard absolutely zero of JO'C's version of events, or his perspective on his own personal strategy in this situation. What we have heard is the inevitably self-protecting and self-promoting version of events from RugbyWA who obviously decided a 'get on the front foot' media release was both smart and appropriate (I don't blame them for that, but let's not be naive as to the dynamics at play here);

We have heard from JOC (James O'Connor) though. He said to Ch9 "I guess I want what's best for myself and building my rugby brand". And that says it all in my eyes. No denials of the Force claims, just some jargon about protecting his image.

- the Force has been going for 6 years without getting into the S1X finals. They have shamelessly and very prominently promoted JO'C as their prize star and if they have reaped a bout of egomaniacal behaviour from him, they are at least partly responsible for underpinning that at every turn in their commercial use of his talent and persona;

Maybe, but they should only take a tiny portion of the blame. It's like saying that the public is to blame when a high-profile star goes off the rails. Yes JOC (James O'Connor) was given top billing at the Force but that is no excuse for him to be such a jerk in the negotiations with them. Quade and Kurtley were given top billing at the Reds and Tahs and still conducted their negotiations with a modicum of decency.

- JO'C is young, world class player who's smart enough to know that the Force need to significantly upgrade elements of its playing roster and equally hold on to its other top talent to stand any credible hope of breaking out of its 'coulda, mighta, maybe-one-day, never-quite-get-there' position within the S15. No talent of JO'C's calibre and young age, and with many good options, would want to sit in a franchise that never gets to the very top, and that he might demand some commitments from RugbyWA to improve the Force's chances might be disagreeable to some, but it's neither irrational nor unexpected, especially when the promotional spotlight is constantly upon him to deliver top billing and max game points for the Force;

Yes but it is the nature of the demands which rankled, and rightfully so. The Force continually stated in the press during the negotiations that they had detailed plans as to where they wanted to be in coming years, as they should. It is all well and good for a star player to make some requests of the coaching staff, but to insist it as a contract requirement is beyond the pale. Insisting on two high profile international back recruits? Yes I am sure the Force would love a few. But how were they supposed to afford them after paying JOC (James O'Connor) a shedload of cash to re-sign?

And then he turns his back on them to go to ... the Rebels? Are you serious?

- the hard business bottom line is that the Force needed JO'C more than JO'C needed them. Their crowd numbers and top line $ income are in linear decline, they have not held the Mitchells or Giteaus or even Crosses, and if they lose Pocock they will risk landing in a very precarious place as a commercially viable rugby franchise;

That may be so, but maintaining professional integrity and a good team ethos is far more important than any one player. They may lose a few potential fans, but will it really land them in a risky financial position? I doubt it. The Force still have plenty of marketable players, and now a good bank of cash to buy the international backs JOC (James O'Connor) wanted to play with.

- when we see 81,000 fans at ANZ last night for SOO II, one asks: does rugby in competition with other codes need as many young, charismatic, promotable stars as it can get its hands on, and then hold them...I think the answer could be yes.

Yes but not at the expense of selling out all of your professional ethics. At the end of the day rugby will always be bigger than JOC (James O'Connor), Quade or Kurtley. Yes the ARu and relevant state bodies should make concessions, but I would never want them to cede to ludicrous demands simply because these players are deemed to be crowd-pullers. Because crowd-pulling players will come and go.

All I am arguing for here is some balance, a bit of understanding of the likely inner world of JO'C, and the consideration of the many factors at play in situations like this and that need to be weighed before a rushed - and very harsh - judgement re JO'C and his character and maturity is made.

I agree there are two sides to every story, and the Force are shaping the story to suit themselves. But even taking that into account I think JOC (James O'Connor) handled this very, very poorly. He has lost a lot of respect in the eyes of the rugby public in these matters, not to mention fellow players and coaches. So much for building a 'rugby brand'.

 

[darkhorse]

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyun...by/11/06/16/RUGBYU_Western_Force.html&BID=504

Richard Graham seems to think he will go the Ponies.

This would annoy me, unless either Lealiifano or To'omua went in the other direction. The one thing the ponies don't need is inside backs.

 

[Moses]

Is this the brand he's trying to protect: http://www.james-oconnor.com.au/

 

[tigerland12]

My respect for Kurtley Beale has just grown even more. The dignity in how he handled the process is just outstanding in comparison too JOC (James O'Connor) and Quade's saga last year. Well done young man. Make no mistake about it, man is the key word here.

Couldn't agree more Ruggo, Beale and his management handled the deal in such a good manner. So much that you forget i even happened because of how quickly and drama-free it was done. Credit to team Beale

 

[barbarian]

Makes me wonder why the Tahs haven't thrown their hat in the ring. Barnes is doubtful to ever return, Beale is gone, JOC (James O'Connor) would be the perfect signing. Exciting back who could cover 10, 12 or 15 and bring the crowds and the much-needed 'x-factor'.

 

[darkhorse]

Is this the brand he's trying to protect: http://www.james-oconnor.com.au/

He looks ridiculous. Is he actually trying to be the next bieber? Next thing you know he will be releasing a rap single like some cheap english footballer.

 

[darkhorse]

Makes me wonder why the Tahs haven't thrown their hat in the ring. Barnes is doubtful to ever return, Beale is gone, JOC (James O'Connor) would be the perfect signing. Exciting back who could cover 10, 12 or 15 and bring the crowds and the much-needed 'x-factor'.

It seems they just can't afford him, which concerns me. How can the Rebs and Force have the cash to offer $1m a year and the tahs, supposedly the financial powerhouse of australian rugby, can't even get close to competing.