The IRB is getting too big for its boots

[Inside Shoulder]

And here's the difference; you're a random punter, who's demonstrably showing he knows nothing, is clearly wrong, and is now throwing toys when he's having it pointed out - which, btw, isn't a personal attack, because pointing out you're being crassly dumb isn't quite the same as retweeting threats that you're a dead man, now is it?

The referee, by contrast, is a match official, who put in a good performance.

But, it wouldn't matter if it weren't; because there is one law you CANNOT break in rugby. And that is; if you touch, or threaten, a match official you're gone. That's it, end of story. You are gone. If you retweet abuse of, threats to, or accuse a referee of racism or bias, and then run from it, you're gone.

And if you don't accept that, then you're no representative of this game.

"crassly dumb" not personal?
grow up

 

[Rugby Nick]

Why do the samoans have to play more than 1 game in 7 days when we dont? If tis good enough for them its good enough for us: lets find tou whose got the depth....

As we covered elsewhere, solutions are needed, not just moaning. Everyone wants to say how unfair it is but from what I have seen teh best suggestion is to cut teh number of teams, so removing some minnows for the sake of helping minnows?

Owens was the one who made a big deal of his sexuality

As he has every right to - indeed gay man active in sports is so rare that any sports person willing to out himself and be open about it should be encouraged as an example to others. I see no relevance of this here. Its no different to someone being 'openly black' (ok they dont have a choice, but you see my point, gay role models, black role models etc are all important to youngsters/communities etc).

- who the fuck cares? They should be like Dick Byers - no one knew when he reffed a game: they are facilitators not performers... not only his face ook page but he came out in the UK press - great, good on him, but he's a ref not a player - what about Gareth Thomas? guess the problem is he played like a poof (joke)
I agree his twitter account seems a bit OTT but look at the context

Just because someone admits to being gay doesnt mean that they should be allowed to come under homphobic abuse. 'Gay' may be slang, but considering it is used in a negative way it is safe to say the usage of the word is in itself homophobic, and when doubled up with a hate campaign against the individual if you don't understand what you are doing by using the word gay then you would have to be the thickest man on the planet.

There is no room for any sort of comments about his sexuality when you are insulting him. It is no different to the sorts of racist words being used in racial abuse. Even if you were to label a black player 'think black prick', the fact you included black in the insult shows racial motivation, so to it is the same with homophobic insults.

Yes I keep referring it back to racial grounds because the two are very similar, but in some corners racial abuse seems to be considered evil, but homphobic abuse just something we should frown and and move on, or worse, something the gay people should 'man up' about.

 

[Bullrush]

If you haven't seen this, Eliota explains his tweets.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Banned-England-RWC-player-Sapolu-speaks-out/tabid/367/articleID/228251/Default.aspx

 

[Thomond78]

It's worth noting that since Nigel Owens came out, Alfie Thomas, the former Wales captain, felt he too could finally come out outside of the game.

BTW, for those who'd like some idea of how this is viewed, you have here: the Justice4 decision;
http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/NewsMedia/0/FinalIRBdecision24.8.09(Signed)_8823.pdf ;

the Venter decisions;

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Discipli...e/2009-2010/ventersaracensjudgmentjan201.ashx

http://www.ercrugby.com/images/content/Cheika_decision.pdf

and the Cheika decision;

http://www.ercrugby.com/images/content/Cheika_decision.pdf (€20,000 fine, half suspended, and costs against him).

Sapolu, btw, was playing in England when those latter two decisions came out, so he knows, or ought to know, exactly how such statements - mild by comparison with his tirades - were dealt with.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Exactly.

It's worth having a look at the decision in the "Justice4" case against the World Champion Bokke. But for a technical point that meant they couldn't do so, the citing panel were going to impose a suspended expulsion from this RWC on the Bokke. That for a public dissent with a decision, with no personalised abuse, from one of the biggest teams around.

So, bluntly, when one looks at how the Bokke were treated, what has Sapolu to complain about in relation to being charged with this that he hasn't brought on himself by his own actions?

http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/NewsMedia/0/FinalIRBdecision24.8.09(Signed)_8823.pdf

I think this decision establishes a double standard.
The breach by the Sarfu was contumacious and was a politically premeditated statement.
Wearing a mouthguard is a necessary part of the game and the branding appears not to have been flaunted in any way. I gather there was an English player fined for something similar?
Both were fined the same amount as SARFU!!!!!!!!!!
I do not recall this hearing ever being reported in Oz but I can't trust my memory.


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[Inside Shoulder]

As we covered elsewhere, solutions are needed, not just moaning. Everyone wants to say how unfair it is but from what I have seen teh best suggestion is to cut teh number of teams, so removing some minnows for the sake of helping minnows?




As he has every right to - indeed gay man active in sports is so rare that any sports person willing to out himself and be open about it should be encouraged as an example to others. I see no relevance of this here. Its no different to someone being 'openly black' (ok they dont have a choice, but you see my point, gay role models, black role models etc are all important to youngsters/communities etc).



Just because someone admits to being gay doesnt mean that they should be allowed to come under homphobic abuse. 'Gay' may be slang, but considering it is used in a negative way it is safe to say the usage of the word is in itself homophobic, and when doubled up with a hate campaign against the individual if you don't understand what you are doing by using the word gay then you would have to be the thickest man on the planet.

There is no room for any sort of comments about his sexuality when you are insulting him. It is no different to the sorts of racist words being used in racial abuse. Even if you were to label a black player 'think black prick', the fact you included black in the insult shows racial motivation, so to it is the same with homophobic insults.

Yes I keep referring it back to racial grounds because the two are very similar, but in some corners racial abuse seems to be considered evil, but homphobic abuse just something we should frown and and move on, or worse, something the gay people should 'man up' about.

Everyone's sexuality is there own business.
Refs should not become personalities: in this country we have seen what happens when they.
Greg Hartley
Bill harrigan


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[Dan54]

OK, I haven't read every post on this thread so apologies if already said, but lets not get like the idiotic press here fellas.
Firstly the Samoan got fined and the English team didn't, use your brains boys, it is 2 different offences ,covered by 2 different laws and panels. Wearing a sponsored mouthguard (although I don't agree with fine) is under the jurisdiction of the World Rugby Cup participation rules. Cheating by changing the ball comes under laws of the game, and as such comes under the jurisdiction of match day officials. It is worth remembering a English player received the same fine for wearing mouthguard.
Perhaps I old fashioned,but don't think players should be able to come out with tweets or whatever about refs, we got enough idiots following game that do that without players joining the fray. I didn't actually think Owens was that bad in the game, he missed a few things, but some of them were in Samoa's favour too!! We can't let our wanting underdogs to win cloud our judgement too much.

 

[Bullrush]

It's worth noting that since Nigel Owens came out, Alfie Thomas, the former Wales captain, felt he too could finally come out outside of the game.

BTW, for those who'd like some idea of how this is viewed, you have here: the Justice4 decision;
http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/NewsMedia/0/FinalIRBdecision24.8.09(Signed)_8823.pdf ;

the Venter decisions;

http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/Discipli...e/2009-2010/ventersaracensjudgmentjan201.ashx

http://www.ercrugby.com/images/content/Cheika_decision.pdf

and the Cheika decision;

http://www.ercrugby.com/images/content/Cheika_decision.pdf (€20,000 fine, half suspended, and costs against him).

Sapolu, btw, was playing in England when those latter two decisions came out, so he knows, or ought to know, exactly how such statements - mild by comparison with his tirades - were dealt with.

If you've listened to his interview you'd hear that he apparently ready to lose his career if it comes to that.

 

[Ruggo]

The IRB needs to be held to account for some of the shit that has gone down this RWC. That does not condone the actions of the player who was foolish and reckless in his response. There are appropriate methods of voicing your opinion or venting your frustration and his method is not one of them. Shwalger on the field also lost the respect of the referee in his dealings with him. He set the tone early and paid the price. The pressure got to the Samoan team which is completely understandable for a team who is fast becomeing a genuine contender to compete with the big boys. It is all part of the learning curve. Spitting the dummy like this has been nothing but counter productive for them.

The sadest part of this is we are now talking about the actions of a goose when we should be talking about holding the IRB to account.

 

[Athilnaur]

True Ruggo, but I think the goose's argument is that the issues would have long since been swept under expensive carpet without the media driven hyperbole.

And he could well be right.

The death threats linking and personal attacks on O'Neil have no place in sport and deserve heavy sanction though.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Now that the IRB have been identified as being somewhat out of touch

extract from http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/rugby-world-cup/carters-injury-exit-earns-sympathy-from-an-unlikely-source-in-cooper-20111005-1l9ob.html

International Rugby Board chief Mike Miller has been eerily quiet on his Twitter account the past week. And that's likely to continue after he comfortably won the World Cup dopey comment of the tournament award for saying: ''Does the World Cup need the All Blacks? Everyone is replaceable.'' With good reason, the Kiwi media have got stuck into Miller. Fairfax New Zealand newspapers yesterday ran a photograph of Miller and a can of Miller Lite beer side by side, asking readers to ''spot the difference''. They also ran the quote, with the caption: ''We agree everyone is replaceable Mike, including you.'' So true. The criticism of the IRB doesn't end there. Former All Blacks winger and now TV commentator Stu Wilson said yesterday: ''Letting two English officials get away [with ball-swapping] because it was handled internally is just bullcrap. They blatantly cheated. Blatantly. Versus the guy that had a mouthguard sponsor that only a dentist would have been able to pick up two inches from his face. [The IRB] let themselves down there.'' However, Wilson agreed that players who broke the laws or criticised officials should be punished. ''I don't know whether the players understood that, but they have to because they're getting paid a shitload of money. Wake up!''

It is all too easy to criticise, and lord knows the Sir Nigel Soft-Bottoms and cronies have made it relatively easy for us recently, but developing and implementing solutions that achieve results is often harder than it first seems.

What advice can GAGGERLANDERS offer the IRB to get its act sorted out?

First off, you need to identify what it is you are trying to achieve. What are the current IRB goals/objectives?

Having identified what it is that the IRB is trying to achieve, then, and only then, can plans, processes, policies and strategies put in place to achieve the desired objective.

If you were the IRB Boss what would be your objectives for that organisation?

What would you change, and what would you fight to not change?

 

[Dan54]

Bloody good points HJ, and it well worth us all having a think and say how WE would improve game etc if we had chance. I will have to put my thinking cap on, lucky there no midweek games on huh??

 

[Rugby Nick]

Everyone's sexuality is there own business.
Refs should not become personalities: in this country we have seen what happens when they.
Greg Hartley
Bill harrigan


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complete bollocks (can I say that on here? if not sorry). The very fact that we talk about the individual refs after each and every game means that WE elevate them to the level of rugby personalities. That they have such an impact means that the individuals are a vital part of rugby, and so are discussed in teh same way we would a player.

In addition that a prominent sports figure has come out is a big boost for the gay community in sports. As has been said it may well have had a bearing on Gareth Thomas coming out - and the more of such individuals in sports the better as it helps to have people that we look up to as gay, so that it changes prejudices and allows those who are scared of coming out in even amateur sporting environments someone who they can relate to and emulate.

'Everyones sexuality is their own business' is complete rubbish in the UK sporting arena - Alfie was hounded for years about his sexuality, and had to have a court injunction in place stopping one newspaper revealing it before he was ready (he wanted to wait until after the last RWC iirc).

The fact that he is openly gay should have ZERO impact on the fact that someone used his sexuality in a derogatory nature, and I am confused by suggestions otherwise.

 

[Rugby Nick]

Now that the IRB have been identified as being somewhat out of touch

extract from http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/rugby-world-cup/carters-injury-exit-earns-sympathy-from-an-unlikely-source-in-cooper-20111005-1l9ob.html


It is all too easy to criticise, and lord knows the Sir Nigel Soft-Bottoms and cronies have made it relatively easy for us recently, but developing and implementing solutions that achieve results is often harder than it first seems.

What advice can GAGGERLANDERS offer the IRB to get its act sorted out?

Thank god someone else is saying this! As I pointed out on another thread it is easy to say "not fair on samoa, having such small turn arounds" but a few things need to be considered

1) What alternatives? The main one seems to be either reduce teams (so cut the minnows to help minnows?) or a longer tournie (one which already goes on a very long time and would have backlashes from numerous departments in Europe over player access)
2) The big teams NEED to be on at weekends for sponsorship reasons. England (and to a lesser extent the rest of us in the UK) are a huge market financially and watching wise. Similarly money for the Aussies, Kiwis, Saffas etc are important to the success of the RWC. Strat playing England games on Thursday at silly o'clock and sponsors will have far less interest

As I keep saying, everyone wants to criticise the IRB for this but i am not seeing anyone offering viable solutions that wont either cut minnow places or face some massive backlash from important areas of the game in Europe (and who could easily threaten to ignore the RWC windows and fight the IRB if needs be). at the very least it would cost the England/France/Scottish unions more in participation agreements - and given that the NZRU etc are saying they may not afford the next RWC what chances of that spoiling the party for the European countries?

 

[08umema]

It's idiots like this who think they know what's best for everyone.

Stay in the closet, Jason Akermanis tells homosexuals by: Jason Akermanis From: Herald Sun May 20, 2010 12:00AM Increase Text

Outspoken AFL player Jason Akermanis talks to the Today Show about why he thinks gay players should stay in the closet.

Two former AFL players are rumoured to have been offered $150,000 to be the first to publicly come out as gay.

And rumours in the past two weeks suggested a Victorian-based player was ready to out himself - rumours that have been baseless.

If a player wants to out himself, then I say good luck.

But I believe the world of AFL footy is not ready for it. To come out is unnecessary for a lot of reasons.

Imagine the publicity associated with a current player admitting he's gay. It would be international news and could break the fabric of a club.

Football clubs are very different environments. Locker room nudity is an everyday part of our lives and unlike any other work place.

I believe it would cause discomfort in that environment should someone declare himself gay.

I have played with a gay player in the twos for Mayne in Queensland in the mid-1990s who was happy to admit his sexual persuasion. He was a great guy who played his heart out and was respected by everyone in the team.

The only time I noticed a difference was when I was showering with 10 other players after a good win and I turned around to see all 10 heading out in a second with their towels. Sure enough, our gay teammate had wandered in.

For some reason I felt uncomfortable, so I left. I am sure most players these days would do the same.

I know he wasn't about to try and convert me to his way of thinking, but I was uncomfortable all the same.

What I should have done was to sit down and talk with him in an attempt to understand his life.

Away from football, I'm all for any initiative that helps lessen public bias against homosexuality, such as IDAHO (International Day Against Homophobia), which was run on Monday.

If you thought suicide was bad among young men, it is four to six times higher for people who are attracted to the same sex. It clearly can be a difficult and lonely road, one that hopefully can be made easier.

Now try being the first AFL player to come out. That is too big a burden for any player.

I know there are many who think a public AFL outing would break down homophobia, but they don't live in football clubs. It's not the job of the minority to make the environment safer. Not now, anyway.

We have made massive steps in other areas of society and in time I hope the environment changes to a degree where coming out isn't a big deal.

In women's sport - tennis, golf, cricket, hockey and soccer - being gay carries no stigma. But men's sport is well behind in acceptance.

Take American-born British national John Amaechi, who became the first NBA professional to come out when he published his book Man in the Middle.

Amaechi claims he has spoken to a dozen professional players who are gay. He says none have asked him if they should come out, but if they did he would tell them not to.

After all he is not a gay rights activist.

In an athletic environment the rules are different from the cultural rules for men.

Never in a mall will you see two straight men hugging, a--- slapping and jumping around like kids after an important goal.

Locker room nudity and homoerotic activities are normal inside footy clubs.

Young people from the ages 15-24 are the main participants in organised sport in Victoria. Some of them must be gay and I hope they thoroughly enjoy their sporting lives without having to experience any form of prejudice.

But if they are thinking of telling the world, my advice would be forget it.

 

[Rugby Nick]

Perfect example of why the likes of Nigel Owens and Gareth Thomas are needed, good post

 

[Scotty]

Could go down the Fifa World Cup format. 8 Pools of 4 teams each. 3 games per pool (2 weeks, or 3 weekends). Round of 16, Qtrs, Semis, Final.

Comp would go for 7 weekends or just over 6 weeks, same as the current RWC format, and we have the added benefit of having another 12 teams involved (yes, I know the definition of minnow would be re-defined).

Other option would be for 6 pools of 4, with the top in each pool going through, and the 2 next best going through.

 

[Rugby Nick]

Could go down the Fifa World Cup format. 8 Pools of 4 teams each. 3 games per pool (2 weeks, or 3 weekends). Round of 16, Qtrs, Semis, Final.

Comp would go for 7 weekends or just over 6 weeks, same as the current RWC format, and we have the added benefit of having another 12 teams involved (yes, I know the definition of minnow would be re-defined).

Other option would be for 6 pools of 4, with the top in each pool going through, and the 2 next best going through.

is that a benefit? There are already some complete missmatches

 

[Inside Shoulder]

complete bollocks (can I say that on here? if not sorry). The very fact that we talk about the individual refs after each and every game means that WE elevate them to the level of rugby personalities. That they have such an impact means that the individuals are a vital part of rugby, and so are discussed in teh same way we would a player.

In addition that a prominent sports figure has come out is a big boost for the gay community in sports. As has been said it may well have had a bearing on Gareth Thomas coming out - and the more of such individuals in sports the better as it helps to have people that we look up to as gay, so that it changes prejudices and allows those who are scared of coming out in even amateur sporting environments someone who they can relate to and emulate.

'Everyones sexuality is their own business' is complete rubbish in the UK sporting arena - Alfie was hounded for years about his sexuality, and had to have a court injunction in place stopping one newspaper revealing it before he was ready (he wanted to wait until after the last RWC iirc).

The fact that he is openly gay should have ZERO impact on the fact that someone used his sexuality in a derogatory nature, and I am confused by suggestions otherwise.

A refs performance does not invite an examination of his personality. Rather, it invites consideration of the merits of the decisions he or she made.
The laws of the game state that it is played by 15 players.
The punters do not pay to go and see a ref. I do not have a foxtel subscription so that I can watch a or any ref.
The consequence is that they should not seek to involve themselves in the promotion of causes by reference to the game.
If the poms can't get over homosexuality that has nothing to do with the undesirability of refs taking the limelight.
As I say we had 2 league refs here who let their personalities bloom and who maximized their commercial potential through that game. It is more than coincidental that harrigan was suggested by Bobby Fulton as a suitable candidate for being run over by a cement truck and Hartley was accused of cheating.
None of this excuses death threats.
Why shouldnt australia have 4 day turnarounds during the pool stages if it's good enough for the minnows?



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[Inside Shoulder]

He's off again with injustices I had over looked
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-new-antiirb-twitter-rant-20111006-1lbb5.html


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