The IRB is getting too big for its boots

[Bruwheresmycar]

@Wolverine, OK I was wrong about that. His article is still garbage though.

@Kiap. The standard of referring will drop for no good reason. 40 games between 10 refs, we don't have time to compensate for made-up bias claims. You need to meet some professional referees if you think they are nationalistic. The studies I've seen are pretty underwhelming as well. If they let refs referee their own country at a world cup, they'd probably be overly harsh on their own country just to avoid being accused of bias.

 

[wolverine]

@Wolverine, OK I was wrong about that. His article is still garbage though.

There are some points of Spiro's that I wouldn't agree with. I can see the merit in selecting the best referees to referee games, regardless of their nationality or that of the participating teams, because referees should be (and are supposed to be) impartial. Nevertheless, other points about the structure of the IRB and its effectiveness are valid.

 

[kiap]

@Wolverine, OK I was wrong about that. His article is still garbage though.

@Kiap. The standard of referring will drop for no good reason. 40 games between 10 refs, we don't have time to compensate for made-up bias claims. You need to meet some professional referees if you think they are nationalistic. The studies I've seen are pretty underwhelming as well. If they let refs referee their own country at a world cup, they'd probably be overly harsh on their own country just to avoid being accused of bias.

As said, national bias in referees is well established in many studies. Peer-reviewed studies with statistically significant results back this.

I don't do "made-up bias claims".

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

The only studies I've seen are just some clever mathematicians showing how the length of winning margins in games involving a referee and a team from his country are smaller than the winning margins of a game involving clubs from two different nationalities to the ref.

They are good at taking data from the past. But they don't use it to predict future results.

Even so, those studies only apply to games where the referee is of the same nationality as one of the teams. And we don't let referees ref their own country at test level anyway. It couldn't be used to justify banning refs from games that are "in the same group" as their home nation.

 

[kiap]

Bru, I suspect you don't understand much about these mathematicians.

As you now concede, "we don't let referees ref their own country at test level". Why do you think this is?

The reason is bias. It exists, it's human - but in this context the important aspect to considered is the perception that potential bias may have an adverse affects on outcomes. It's a simple problem and there are plenty of options in response. Clutching at logistics as making it all too hard means there's not much really left to cling to.

Time for some more actual Rugby. Joubert just refereed a good game - now bring on the English and French!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A "current affairs program" could include shows like Channel 10's 7pm project or George Negus, ABC's Four Corners or ABC's Offsiders (which focuses on a range of sports). It is unlikely that Rugby would be featured on any Australian current shows except for perhaps Offsiders, and certainly not ACA or TT - their target markets have little to no interest in Rugby or the IRB.

More likely Spiro was on an NZ current affairs show. He was on NZ TV3's show The Nation in early September, on an NZ radio show, National Radio's Afternoon's with Jim Mora, on Sunday October 2nd, 2pm, talking strategy after the loss of Dan Carter.

I pointed this out 24 hours ago but I don't think he reads the responses to his posts


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[Bruwheresmycar]

Are you blind?

@Wolverine, OK I was wrong about that. His article is still garbage though.

In the face of evidence I will always retract a statement. You didn't provide any, he did though. Is that good enough? Or do you want an e-card or something as well?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Are you blind?



In the face of evidence I will always retract a statement. You didn't provide any, he did though. Is that good enough? Or do you want an e-card or something as well?

Mate, Im on the other side of the world - I knew when they were appointing the refs for the QFs by just staying informed: if you need citations for something that (a) happened in the last week (b) was all over the media and (c) had threads devoted to it on this very site then you should audition for the voice of the goldfish in Finding Nemo

 

[Inside Shoulder]

On another thread a poster has pointed out that the ball was in play for only 29 minutes of the 80.
This is undoubtedly a blight on the game.
My mates who are league followers will watch union but never have to wait long before complaining about players going down injured only to have close ups of them doing up a boot lace or replacing a contact lense. Over here in the US the commentators actually, innocently, described a prop as needing a break not intending to imply criticism for the that he was merely out of puff or that there was anything wrong with what he was doing.

Now it is true that the clock stops for injuries so these are not the real cause of a lack of real playing time.

I suggest the real culprits are reset scrums and goal kicks.

The IRB should stop worrying about mouth guards and do some analysis of where the time goes and then address it.

Suggestions: kicks into touch stop the clock; any reset scrum stops the clock from collapse of the first scrum to emergence of the ball from the last; stop the clock for goal kicks and/or require drop kicks if more than a minute from award of penalty to placing the ball and stop the clock after a try or any other score.


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[Scotty]

Those options will lead to more ball in play but not a more fluent game as it will just happen over a longer period. I see some better options:

1. Fix scrums by taking away the power hit, thereby reducing collapses

2. Lineouts to go ahead no matter who is down - find an alternative thrower if need be

3. All players injuries to be treated on the side line so play can continue freely

I guarantee that we will see a lot less players going down for injuries with changes like these!

 

[Scotty]

Regarding the refereeing discussion I don't see how anyone can argue that the irb are selecting the best referees. Not due to national bias but there definitely seems to be politics at play.

Both Mark Lawrence and Stuart Dickinson are so far ahead of the likes of Bryce Lawrence it isn't funny. Yet they are sitting at home watching the games.

 

[Bullrush]

Regarding the refereeing discussion I don't see how anyone can argue that the irb are selecting the best referees. Not due to national bias but there definitely seems to be politics at play.

Both Mark Lawrence and Stuart Dickinson are so far ahead of the likes of Bryce Lawrence it isn't funny. Yet they are sitting at home watching the games.

Mark Lawrence - Yes
Stu Dickinson.......errrrr, No.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Stu Dickinson wasn't deemed good enough for the Shute Shield premiership game. IIRC he was one of the touchies.

 

[cyclopath]

Stu Dickinson wasn't deemed good enough for the Shute Shield premiership game. IIRC he has one of the touchies.

Hostage?

 

[Cardiffblue]

Hadn't followed this thread for a bit but then thought I'd ask what eveyrone in this country thought of Spiro Zavos? Glad to see that he is considered a dickhead here too

Boasting that he got on the telly is one thing (dancing with the stars next for you spiro) but this is garbage journalism (and I doubt would work if anyone sued for libel)-

"And I add this further fact, without comment or any inference: the chairman of the panel that makes the refereeing appointments is David Pickering, the chairman of the Welsh Rugby Union."

IRB killed JFK. Chairman seen on grassy knoll.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't think you could argue that we are blessed with the best by way of rugby journos but I think you're a bit hard on spiro.
The reference to a current affairs program was arguably to establish the fact that he has said it publicly in another forum.
I agree that his further fact is pregnant with innuendo: in reality it's almost inevitable that, whoever is responsible for the QF appointments, his home country will be playing.
Spiro, by the way, is a kiwi.


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[Cardiffblue]

there are plenty of plonkers in NH journos too. Many of them eating great helpings of humble pie this morning

 

[wolverine]

Zavos:

"...... the IRB is a cabal of the Home Unions, which rule the game in their own interests."

IRB drops the ball, again, by ignoring its own rules

This is the big issue that few have addressed on the thread. The structure of the IRB council that gives two votes to each of the Tier 1 nations and Japan, but only one vote for each of the regional associations in North and South America, Europe and Asia. The fact that Fiji, Samoa and Tonga do not get a vote each of their own, let alone two to match those of the Tier 1 nations, is unfair and undemocratic.

Since the IRB makes a pretence to being a democracy, why not give an equal vote to the PIs? If the idea is that Unions representing larger general or playing populations, surely England should attract ten times the number of votes of a Union like Scotland. Oops, the RFU were docked one million pounds in funding for overstating their participation figures! Such a scheme would encourage misrepresentation of figures.

The biggest issue that faced this Rugby season:

Second, move the date of the tournament forward to October-November, where it used to be before RWC 2007 in France. The French clubs will not like this. But as I said to the interviewer: "Miller has to run the IRB for the rugby nations not for the French clubs.''

Zavos is right on this. The Cup should have been staged from October. The French Top14 clubs perhaps exerted influence on IRB Chairman, and former French Rugby Federation Chairman, Bernard Lapasset, and his CEO Miller, to bring the Cup forward. The English clubs may have played a part too. The September timing pushed the Tri Nations earlier, and meant that SANZAR nations like NZ and SA could not field full strength teams for the entire comp in 2011.

Aus Rugby will face a Lions tour in June/July 2013 which will further disrupt Super Rugby and the SH season. If anything, that should be held in September/October 2013.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

At the risk of reopening the frothing mess so far in this thread, a couple of interesting articles from the Guardian on the IRB meeting on Monday. It would appear that sanity is likely to prevail on the administrative side.

Our man Grumbles must have been sidetracked by a pie shop en-route to this affair.

Rugby World Cup saved for 2015 but disagreements rumble on

Sanzar threatens walkout of IRB meeting for 2015 World Cup

I particularly liked this paragraph:

The IRB chief executive, Mike Miller, was rebuked for his response to remarks made by New Zealand Rugby Union's chief executive, Steve Tew. Told that the All Blacks would be highly unlikely to able to afford to play in 2015 unless the financial model is changed, Miller said they would be replaceable. But both Australia and South Africa said they would stand behind New Zealand and wondered how Miller thought all three could be replaced, and pointed out that the IRB has already got more than £120m in reserve.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

At the risk of reopening the frothing mess so far in this thread, a couple of interesting articles from the Guardian on the IRB meeting on Monday. It would appear that sanity is likely to prevail on the administrative side.

Our man Grumbles must have been sidetracked by a pie shop en-route to this affair.

Rugby World Cup saved for 2015 but disagreements rumble on

Sanzar threatens walkout of IRB meeting for 2015 World Cup

I particularly liked this paragraph:

I like rebukes...i also like how we're standing behind NZ....just out of sight but yapping annoyingly