Sydney Subbies 2025

[Pfitzy]

Colts is a tricky proposition - if you don't have them to start with, you don't have any history of program to drive it.

Corralling enough of them together every week is becoming more difficult. I've talked to club administrators who are in their late 20s and early 30s and they don't understand how these young blokes can't commit until the day of the game.

Exasperating.

 

[Here To Do]

Colts is a tricky proposition - if you don't have them to start with, you don't have any history of program to drive it.

Corralling enough of them together every week is becoming more difficult. I've talked to club administrators who are in their late 20s and early 30s and they don't understand how these young blokes can't commit until the day of the game.

Exasperating.

I think a lot of it comes down to getting clusters together - they sort of keep each other in check rather than the club having to chase as much.

With our Colts program, we had to start from scratch years ago. We had to find people who knew people whose son was playing at this school and had 3 mates he could bring down on Saturdays. We ended up, as a Div Four club, runners-up in the Radford with a bunch of guys who hadn't heard of Briars until they played for us.

The Super/Shute drain is one of the issues here - if you're a young man playing rugby at school, you're aiming for Wallabies or NRL. Tahs may be a fallback in which case you bugger off to Europe or Japan if you get the chance at more money, but I don't think many kids are aspiring to play for district teams, let alone suburban clubs.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think the first job should be helping connect the resources that already exist.

The eastern suburbs heartland has this almost by default, relying mostly on networks and individuals to make connections; this has been the undoing of some clubs when particular individual(s) aren't on the scene any more.

If you could get Juniors and Schools working together, it would help Seniors a lot.

Get a model that works, tweak it for different socioeconomic areas, and set it in motion. Five year plan at best, but if you could get the leftovers from league and Premier Colts to start playing Subbies for their local club, you'd be on a good path to helping the west.

There are no Colts sides at present between St Pats and Blue Mountains, except for Hawkesbury Valley to the far north of the M4 spine.

I think the idea of establishing a model that works and applying it to certain areas but with tweaks here and there is good in theory but if look at the spread of clubs in the city's west which I would determine as any club west of Parramatta (including Merrylands) there are not many resources to connect with as it stands.

So anyone coming into a HoR role in the region would need to understand that they have to work with clubs to essentially build the community around them.

 

[Pfitzy]

The Super/Shute drain is one of the issues here - if you're a young man playing rugby at school, you're aiming for Wallabies or NRL. Tahs may be a fallback in which case you bugger off to Europe or Japan if you get the chance at more money, but I don't think many kids are aspiring to play for district teams, let alone suburban clubs.

I think it plays a part - a bigger issue is school leavers not staying in the game IMHO.

How many schools in Sydney have rugby?
How many have multiple opens XVs playing?
That's the numbers game - knowing how many kids played rugby and are leaving school - so we can figure out how many are candidates for Colts.

Premier Clubs will not need to refresh their entire Colts program every year as someone are still U20. It will vary but if you put down 30 players per club, in Sydney that's 330 to get you started. I know a lot of clubs are bringing country kids in as well to help bolster their numbers, so it might be less.

As a Subbies club, I know I'm not getting the superstars so First XV guys and a lot of Second XV as well.

And quite frankly the 3rd XV prop at Oakhill who likes the idea of a beer and a game with his mates is probably more valuable to me Local, social, and committed. If I got 6-8 guys per year coming through, they could run in Subbies Colts (U21) for 3 years while also supporting senior grades. The issue is getting the first squad of 25-30 together...

Depending on who is aging out, Subbies clubs in the top 4 divisions would need between 6-10 players each I reckon, which is another 200-320 players.

So for Premier Rugby + Subbies Rugby, we need about 550-650 kids every year, so up to 43 XVs.

Back to the questions: how many schools in Sydney have rugby? How many XVs will be leaving school?
AND
How many of them are staying in Sydney? How many kids can we find from other sources like League or Aussie Rules?

 

[Strewthcobber]

The challenge with 18-20 year olds is always going to be mobility, they are going to move closer to uni, to the bright lights etc.

Trying to build a club in the burbs unless you are near a major centre is really hard.

Having said that, I know more are living with parents then there used to be.

 

[Pfitzy]

Trying to build a club in the burbs unless you are near a major centre is really hard.

Mate the Metro line is practically the spine of these suburbs

Plenty of time to have a beer at the Etta after the game, head into the city for a big night, then sober up a bit on the way home.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

I wouldn't expect anything concrete before late Feb for Div 2. I think we'll definitely have Briars, Shammies, Pats, UNSW and Forest in there, but the rest remains to be seen based on a few things this year:

1) Beecroft dropping Third Grade
2) Hills not having Colts
3) Epping's unusual season

You'd want someone like Irish to come up and make a go of it, if they can find a Colts solution. They've probably got enough for 3 Grades with good depth.

However, with 5 teams penned in and a lot of pencil marks, the draw is going to take some quick work from Subbies during preseason

It is interesting how colleagues works. With a smaller vounteer base compared to big clubs such as Mosman or Waverley.

The club is mostly run by the players.

 

[Here To Do]

Mate the Metro line is practically the spine of these suburbs

Plenty of time to have a beer at the Etta after the game, head into the city for a big night, then sober up a bit on the way home.

Give it time - now the extension has opened and it runs direct to the city and southern suburbs I reckon you'll start to see more and more heading out your way

 

[Pfitzy]

Hi all - hope everyone has a good break over Xmas/NY and gets a chance to recharge before flying into Season 2025.

While I'm no longer on the Board, and pretty burned out myself I'm still all in to help make the game great as we look forward to a Lions tour and RWC hosting over the next 6 years or so. It'll be chaotic and glorious in equal measure, no doubt.

In that, I liken Subbies to Homer's turn as Max Power:

 

[Rhino_rugby]

Hi all - hope everyone has a good break over Xmas/NY and gets a chance to recharge before flying into Season 2025.

While I'm no longer on the Board, and pretty burned out myself I'm still all in to help make the game great as we look forward to a Lions tour and RWC hosting over the next 6 years or so. It'll be chaotic and glorious in equal measure, no doubt.

In that, I liken Subbies to Homer's turn as Max Power:

View attachment 20924

Wishing everyone a fantastic Xmas and NY break!
Excited for what lies ahead chaos and glory sound like the perfect mix for rugby!

 

[footy_footy]

I wouldn't expect anything concrete before late Feb for Div 2. I think we'll definitely have Briars, Shammies, Pats, UNSW and Forest in there, but the rest remains to be seen based on a few things this year:

1) Beecroft dropping Third Grade
2) Hills not having Colts
3) Epping's unusual season

You'd want someone like Irish to come up and make a go of it, if they can find a Colts solution. They've probably got enough for 3 Grades with good depth.

However, with 5 teams penned in and a lot of pencil marks, the draw is going to take some quick work from Subbies during preseason

Late Feb is quite a wait but, which can make it hard for clubs to plan but if delaying finalisation of divisions lets clubs get themselves in order to avoid the issues of 2024 then I'd say this is a good move from Subbies.

Anyone have any intel on how Epping, Hills and/or Beecroft are travelling?

Looking at their socials it looks like Epping have had a committee refresh and are looking to get on top of things after 2024.

 

[Bob_Jones]

I think it plays a part - a bigger issue is school leavers not staying in the game IMHO.

How many schools in Sydney have rugby?
How many have multiple opens XVs playing?
That's the numbers game - knowing how many kids played rugby and are leaving school - so we can figure out how many are candidates for Colts.

Premier Clubs will not need to refresh their entire Colts program every year as someone are still U20. It will vary but if you put down 30 players per club, in Sydney that's 330 to get you started. I know a lot of clubs are bringing country kids in as well to help bolster their numbers, so it might be less.

As a Subbies club, I know I'm not getting the superstars so First XV guys and a lot of Second XV as well.

And quite frankly the 3rd XV prop at Oakhill who likes the idea of a beer and a game with his mates is probably more valuable to me Local, social, and committed. If I got 6-8 guys per year coming through, they could run in Subbies Colts (U21) for 3 years while also supporting senior grades. The issue is getting the first squad of 25-30 together...

Depending on who is aging out, Subbies clubs in the top 4 divisions would need between 6-10 players each I reckon, which is another 200-320 players.

So for Premier Rugby + Subbies Rugby, we need about 550-650 kids every year, so up to 43 XVs.

Back to the questions: how many schools in Sydney have rugby? How many XVs will be leaving school?
AND
How many of them are staying in Sydney? How many kids can we find from other sources like League or Aussie Rules?

Pfitzy,

Observation from me...

I have a son who just finished year 12, playing 1st XV at one of the 'lower' rated div 1 Sydney ISA schools. Many moons ago, I was involved with a Shute Shield team and my only experience with Subbies was Colleagues ladies day, so this is all new to me!

From his school 1st XV team, a couple of the better players are heading off to Shute Shield teams (following various teams reaching out to them).

I was however pretty surprised that there wasn't any engagement from the local Subbies clubs with the 'non Shute Shield' kids as the season drew to an end. I reckon there would probably be 10-20 graduating year 12 kids (1st XV and 2nd XV players) who would be interested in playing rugby post school in a more social environment (I know they don't want to play Shute Shield level). I know that the Subbies clubs can't woo them during year 12 with beers and a BBQ (as most are still under 18), but would have thought sending someone down to training / watching a match and then chatting to the boys after a match telling them what Subbies is like might have gotten some traction with them.

Like you said, the top level GPS, CAS and ISA players are always going towards the Shute Shield clubs, but I think there are plenty of players to be picked up at the level below that. These kids have played rugby for the past 6 year at school (and often club and rep up to U14-15), so there is no reason to think that they don't want to play rugby 1st year out of school. To me, all it would take is a bit of engagement, some information on what Subbies is about (and what it isn't about) and I think clubs could get them 1st year out of school. To me, keeping them after the first year is the hard thing.

From what I have seen with Shute Shield colts these days (via oldest son), the social aspect seems pretty non existent. Very few clubs houses, no post match functions and boat races, no 4th grade colts, no hanging around to watch 1st grade colts, etc, so seems that the social aspect of Shute Shield colts is almost none existent and perhaps social Colts rugby could be the marketing angle of Subbies??

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Pfitzy,

Observation from me...

I have a son who just finished year 12, playing 1st XV at one of the 'lower' rated div 1 Sydney ISA schools. Many moons ago, I was involved with a Shute Shield team and my only experience with Subbies was Colleagues ladies day, so this is all new to me!

From his school 1st XV team, a couple of the better players are heading off to Shute Shield teams (following various teams reaching out to them).

I was however pretty surprised that there wasn't any engagement from the local Subbies clubs with the 'non Shute Shield' kids as the season drew to an end. I reckon there would probably be 10-20 graduating year 12 kids (1st XV and 2nd XV players) who would be interested in playing rugby post school in a more social environment (I know they don't want to play Shute Shield level). I know that the Subbies clubs can't woo them during year 12 with beers and a BBQ (as most are still under 18), but would have thought sending someone down to training / watching a match and then chatting to the boys after a match telling them what Subbies is like might have gotten some traction with them.

Like you said, the top level GPS, CAS and ISA players are always going towards the Shute Shield clubs, but I think there are plenty of players to be picked up at the level below that. These kids have played rugby for the past 6 year at school (and often club and rep up to U14-15), so there is no reason to think that they don't want to play rugby 1st year out of school. To me, all it would take is a bit of engagement, some information on what Subbies is about (and what it isn't about) and I think clubs could get them 1st year out of school. To me, keeping them after the first year is the hard thing.

From what I have seen with Shute Shield colts these days (via oldest son), the social aspect seems pretty non existent. Very few clubs houses, no post match functions and boat races, no 4th grade colts, no hanging around to watch 1st grade colts, etc, so seems that the social aspect of Shute Shield colts is almost none existent and perhaps social Colts rugby could be the marketing angle of Subbies??

I’ll jump in before the legend that is Pfitzy replies.

I think a lot of Subbies clubs would love to be out doing what you’ve suggested and engaging with players as they finish at school and the “successful” clubs are out there. However it takes a lot of effort to get out there contact schools, attend, sell the club etc and then follow up.

The school season coincides with the end of the Subbies season when a lot of our volunteers are flat out and if not burnt out form the year are flat out ensuring guys have ID for finals etc (not as simple as you’d have thought). As volunteers we get to the end of the year and need that break away from Rugby as the start date for the next season is practically a week after the end of the last one which puts a big drain on volunteers.

I don’t know what they solution is cause if your not doing what you’ve mentioned your struggling to get colts and then eventually your older guys will age out and you’ll loose them. Every club would like to have a conveyor belt of colts coming though like a Hunters, Mosman or Newport it’s really hard to recruit them these days. Just look at St Ives who have the junior club but are on more support the past few years.

 

[Pfitzy]

Hi Bob - thanks for your perspective. Always interesting to hear where people are coming from, as I didn't go through the schools system, and appreciate filling in those gaps.

I absolutely agree that getting into schools directly would help engagement for Subbies clubs. There is definitely an issue with profile of clubs who are local, but perhaps not visible.

However, Odyssey makes some good points as well.

Shute Shield clubs often have the budget to fund a development officer whose KPIs are about getting numbers in the door. Their time is paid for to create engagement, for clubs who are often known to these kids already (anyone who plays Rugby in Sydney knows Eastwood for example)

The only person at my club who gets paid is the physio. And, if the government grants or sponsors don't come through, we have to consider that as well!

Everyone at the club has a full-time job, so it is difficult to get out there and press the flesh once season is over and before HSC begins. The guys I know who are teachers are reluctant to promote our club in case it gets seen as some form of favouritism or grooming.

(Having had a few terse conversations with my boss the last few years, I'm already sailing close to the rocks from March to September )

Social media is one way to engage these guys, and we've had some success getting U21 players in the door this way. Other clubs are similar, without having enough to commit to a full team. Getting people to bring mates is a key aspect as well.

I've even tried engaging players directly via social media channels, and while they were polite young men, the answer was always "no". They'd already been sold the dream of playing First XV for a Premier (as they pay their $400+), and i can't compete with what some of those clubs are offering.

I'll keep trying, and have inched forward a few steps this year, but it is a mountain to climb and I've got no Sherpas to help

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Hi Bob - thanks for your perspective. Always interesting to hear where people are coming from, as I didn't go through the schools system, and appreciate filling in those gaps.

I absolutely agree that getting into schools directly would help engagement for Subbies clubs. There is definitely an issue with profile of clubs who are local, but perhaps not visible.

However, Odyssey makes some good points as well.

Shute Shield clubs often have the budget to fund a development officer whose KPIs are about getting numbers in the door. Their time is paid for to create engagement, for clubs who are often known to these kids already (anyone who plays Rugby in Sydney knows Eastwood for example)

The only person at my club who gets paid is the physio. And, if the government grants or sponsors don't come through, we have to consider that as well!

Everyone at the club has a full-time job, so it is difficult to get out there and press the flesh once season is over and before HSC begins. The guys I know who are teachers are reluctant to promote our club in case it gets seen as some form of favouritism or grooming.

(Having had a few terse conversations with my boss the last few years, I'm already sailing close to the rocks from March to September )

Social media is one way to engage these guys, and we've had some success getting U21 players in the door this way. Other clubs are similar, without having enough to commit to a full team. Getting people to bring mates is a key aspect as well.

I've even tried engaging players directly via social media channels, and while they were polite young men, the answer was always "no". They'd already been sold the dream of playing First XV for a Premier (as they pay their $400+), and i can't compete with what some of those clubs are offering.

I'll keep trying, and have inched forward a few steps this year, but it is a mountain to climb and I've got no Sherpas to help

A lot of coaches being paid out there. Clubs see it as a key role. I wonder if In the future there’s a market to pay someone to run a club as volunteers diminish. I’d imagine there a lot of people would enjoy an extra $10-$15k a year to do all the leg work at a club. I wish I knew how to coach and people wanted to pay me for it.

 

[Northies]

A lot of coaches being paid out there. Clubs see it as a key role. I wonder if In the future there’s a market to pay someone to run a club as volunteers diminish. I’d imagine there a lot of people would enjoy an extra $10-$15k a year to do all the leg work at a club. I wish I knew how to coach and people wanted to pay me for it.

Some (not all) head coaches in Div 1 might be getting something, maybe the odd Div 2 one but after that its pretty non-existent.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Some (not all) head coaches in Div 1 might be getting something, maybe the odd Div 2 one but after that its pretty non-existent.

I think you’ll find it’s becoming a lot more common Than people think in Subbies and not just head coaches but guys running colts programs ass well

 

[footy_footy]

Pfitzy,

Observation from me...

I have a son who just finished year 12, playing 1st XV at one of the 'lower' rated div 1 Sydney ISA schools. Many moons ago, I was involved with a Shute Shield team and my only experience with Subbies was Colleagues ladies day, so this is all new to me!

From his school 1st XV team, a couple of the better players are heading off to Shute Shield teams (following various teams reaching out to them).

I was however pretty surprised that there wasn't any engagement from the local Subbies clubs with the 'non Shute Shield' kids as the season drew to an end. I reckon there would probably be 10-20 graduating year 12 kids (1st XV and 2nd XV players) who would be interested in playing rugby post school in a more social environment (I know they don't want to play Shute Shield level). I know that the Subbies clubs can't woo them during year 12 with beers and a BBQ (as most are still under 18), but would have thought sending someone down to training / watching a match and then chatting to the boys after a match telling them what Subbies is like might have gotten some traction with them.

Like you said, the top level GPS, CAS and ISA players are always going towards the Shute Shield clubs, but I think there are plenty of players to be picked up at the level below that. These kids have played rugby for the past 6 year at school (and often club and rep up to U14-15), so there is no reason to think that they don't want to play rugby 1st year out of school. To me, all it would take is a bit of engagement, some information on what Subbies is about (and what it isn't about) and I think clubs could get them 1st year out of school. To me, keeping them after the first year is the hard thing.

From what I have seen with Shute Shield colts these days (via oldest son), the social aspect seems pretty non existent. Very few clubs houses, no post match functions and boat races, no 4th grade colts, no hanging around to watch 1st grade colts, etc, so seems that the social aspect of Shute Shield colts is almost none existent and perhaps social Colts rugby could be the marketing angle of Subbies??

It's an interesting topic but being able to get into schools towards the end of year 12 would be a massive bonus. One aspect of this would obviously be the resources available to the premier clubs who often have paid staff whose job is to manage these relations and recruitment.

"Old Boys" clubs are rapidly fading out in the world of Subbies despite the apparent advantage they have in accessing schools. In Div 1, Waverley were historically an Old Boys club but they have evolved significantly of recent times to the point I wouldn't really consider them to be an Old Boy club plus they have had their fair share of difficulty with colts in recent time - how many Waverley College lads play for Waverley after school?

St Pat's in Div 2 have had competitive colts for some time and appear to have a steady stream of players. Old Ignatians have merged with Lane Cove who join Barker & Knox in Div 3 - all of which have slipped considerably in the past decade+ despite their connection to some of Sydney's leading rugby schools. Kings, Redfield and Brothers have also been on the slippery slope for a number of years.

Do these Old Boys clubs have any direct contact with the students or whether there is just an unspoken/implied connection that follows on year on year?

Anyone hazard a guess why these styles of clubs have faded so much in the past 15-20 years? A few of them were Div 1 club champions since 2000. I'm sure there would be "local/suburban" clubs that would love to have the access to a graduating school rugby cohort every year!

 

[SubbiesSoftie]

Pfitzy,

Observation from me...

I have a son who just finished year 12, playing 1st XV at one of the 'lower' rated div 1 Sydney ISA schools. Many moons ago, I was involved with a Shute Shield team and my only experience with Subbies was Colleagues ladies day, so this is all new to me!

From his school 1st XV team, a couple of the better players are heading off to Shute Shield teams (following various teams reaching out to them).

I was however pretty surprised that there wasn't any engagement from the local Subbies clubs with the 'non Shute Shield' kids as the season drew to an end. I reckon there would probably be 10-20 graduating year 12 kids (1st XV and 2nd XV players) who would be interested in playing rugby post school in a more social environment (I know they don't want to play Shute Shield level). I know that the Subbies clubs can't woo them during year 12 with beers and a BBQ (as most are still under 18), but would have thought sending someone down to training / watching a match and then chatting to the boys after a match telling them what Subbies is like might have gotten some traction with them.

Like you said, the top level GPS, CAS and ISA players are always going towards the Shute Shield clubs, but I think there are plenty of players to be picked up at the level below that. These kids have played rugby for the past 6 year at school (and often club and rep up to U14-15), so there is no reason to think that they don't want to play rugby 1st year out of school. To me, all it would take is a bit of engagement, some information on what Subbies is about (and what it isn't about) and I think clubs could get them 1st year out of school. To me, keeping them after the first year is the hard thing.

From what I have seen with Shute Shield colts these days (via oldest son), the social aspect seems pretty non existent. Very few clubs houses, no post match functions and boat races, no 4th grade colts, no hanging around to watch 1st grade colts, etc, so seems that the social aspect of Shute Shield colts is almost none existent and perhaps social Colts rugby could be the marketing angle of Subbies??

Can I ask which school your son goes to? I'm aware of at least 2 Subbies clubs who make presentations to ISA schools and there are really only 2 low ranked Sydney based ISA schools.

 

[Pfitzy]

Anyone hazard a guess why these styles of clubs have faded so much in the past 15-20 years?

Probably a mix of factors.

The schools themselves aren't necessarily as Rugby-focused as they were. The individuals with the time to do this aren't in plentiful supply any more.

The changes in Rugby pathways probably have a bit to do with it as well