Sydney Subbies 2025

[Let it sing]

Have just seen the changes in Divisions and understandable why the majority of draws haven’t come out as yet. So many moving parts and no doubt a logistical nightmare for Subbies to manage and irrespective of their efforts are on a hiding to nothing.

Looks like the change in Div 4 and 5 points to the belief from the top brass that these clubs can/or wish to grow with their efforts to roll out colts programmes. It prevents a club slowly aging out as seen with some of the big shifts between Divisions. I’d say still some change to come as players roll up as the weather gets cooler.

 

[Pfitzy]

Looks like the change in Div 4 and 5 points to the belief from the top brass that these clubs can/or wish to grow with their efforts to roll out colts programmes. It prevents a club slowly aging out as seen with some of the big shifts between Divisions. I’d say still some change to come as players roll up as the weather gets cooler.

I think it's logical to reward clubs with Colts, and that the numerical order of divisions should reflect a mindset of progress.

Hopefully it will improve the strength of their grade sides over time and make the jump as you say.

I guess the rest of us just have to keep trying.

It is a bit wearying TBH, having put in three years of concerted effort, to still have only 6 on the books who are U21 each year, give or take.



Everyone has advice of course, and I apply what I can given the resources available.

Maybe next year... ?

 

[Pfitzy]

Another point I'd like to make is around rego collection - making players pay in the app has helped us be more realistic about our numbers, and I think creates a two-way commitment.

I know we're at the cheaper end of rego, so that helps. I think it is important to say that the directive by Subbies to move forward with this will help everyone in the longer term.

1) Club Admins won't be scrambling to pay bills when insurance, levies, and Subbies fees come due.
2) Clubs won't be handing out shorts and socks to tyre kickers for free.
3) Players will be more engaged and committed.
4) The Treasurer and Registrar get more time to work on important stuff.

I think it'll help clubs identify where they really are, and see an uplift in the average number of games per player.

It *might* create a short-term drop in the number of registered players, but I consider this a recalibration on a single metric.

I don't think it'll mean less games or grades for the truly committed.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

I think it's logical to reward clubs with Colts, and that the numerical order of divisions should reflect a mindset of progress.

Hopefully it will improve the strength of their grade sides over time and make the jump as you say.

I guess the rest of us just have to keep trying.

It is a bit wearying TBH, having put in three years of concerted effort, to still have only 6 on the books who are U21 each year, give or take.



Everyone has advice of course, and I apply what I can given the resources available.

Maybe next year... ?

Pfitzy I’m interested to get your opinion or
Your clubs of this push to prioritise clubs with colts. Your club has regularly fielded strong grade numbers and done everything you can to get Colts and it hasn’t happened yet. Why should another club be prioritised as they have colts when next year you may have more Grade numbers than them?

Before anyone says anything I know why the preference is for clubs to have colts cause it’s easier to grow and the grade sides don’t age out.

I suppose ultimately in this new world we need to ignore the division numbers and focus on the number of teams and how it best fits for clubs.

 

[CrashBandicoot2]

Div 4, which is prioritising Colts, has a club without a colts? And a club without a First Grade? Are they forcing a merger?

Seems like alot of clubs might be playing Halligans this year

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy I’m interested to get your opinion or
Your clubs of this push to prioritise clubs with colts. Your club has regularly fielded strong grade numbers and done everything you can to get Colts and it hasn’t happened yet. Why should another club be prioritised as they have colts when next year you may have more Grade numbers than them?

Before anyone says anything I know why the preference is for clubs to have colts cause it’s easier to grow and the grade sides don’t age out.

I suppose ultimately in this new world we need to ignore the division numbers and focus on the number of teams and how it best fits for clubs.

I don't see Division 5 as a demotion - hell, back in the day we started in Div 5 with 2 Grades!

For me, there are 3 parts to this:

1) Clubs need a plan to stop aging out. I'm keenly aware - being a player and ref within sight of 50 years - that it is happening to a lot of clubs as recruitment dries up in the younger age bracket due a few factors - not least of which is the fickle nature of the youth rugby player**

2) Creating divisions where like-sized clubs face each other is still a critical part of Subbies

3) If they can also oppose clubs of a similar strength, that is important. However that's the most difficult part of the equation.

If you get those three things together by putting Colts as a priority - and not your only priority of course - you probably have a more sustainable competition and club framework.

Underpinning this is the opportunity for Colts-aged players bringing other people into your club's sphere e.g. parents who might want to volunteer, coach, join committees etc.




**this also comes down to how the local junior pathway recruits and builds their culture. A bad experience at Juniors, Schools, or Premier Colts can see a player leave the game forever, and critically: none of these affiliates work together directly; a major weakness of our code.

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

From the website (changes underlined):

Division One is a six-team competition with clubs competing for the Kentwell, Burke, Barbour (U21 Colts), Whiddon, Judd and Sutherland Cups.
Teams (8): Blue Mountains, Colleagues, Drummoyne, Hunters Hill, Lindfield, Mosman, Newport (+1), Waverley

Division Two is a five-team competition with clubs competing for the Barraclough, Stockdale, Robertson (U21 Colts), Blunt & Richardson Cups.
Teams (6): Briars, Forest (-1), Petersham, St Patrick's, Sydney Irish (+1), UNSW

Division Three is a three-team competition with clubs competing for the Clark, Farrant and Nicholson (U21 Colts) Cups.
Teams (8): Beecroft (-1), Hawkesbury Valley, Hills (-1), Hornsby (+1), Knox, Lane Cove Old Ignatians, Old Barker, Western Raptors (+1)

Division Four is a two-team competition with clubs competing for the Jeffrey and Radford (U21 Colts) Cups.
Teams (7): Balmain (+1), Brothers [Colts] (+1), Chatswood, Macquarie Uni (+1), St Ives (+1) [Jeffrey Cup], Kings, Wakehurst

Division Five is a two-team competition with clubs competing for the McLean and Grose Cups.
Teams (6 - all dropped from higher divisions except Penrith): Canterbury (-1), Epping (-3), Penrith (new), Redfield (-1), Renegades (-1), Sydney Harlequins (-2)

Division Six is a one-team competition with clubs competing for the Meldrum Cup.
Teams (9 - all dropped from higher divisions): Blacktown (-1), Burraneer (-1), Colleagues Convicts (-1), Georges River (-1), Maccabi (-1), Manly Savers (-1), Merrylands (-3), North Cronulla (-1), Oatley (-1)

Not listed (at least, not yet): Sydney Harbour (were Div 3)

I'm actually a fan of this set up. Ideally you'd have one of Div 1 or Div 3 down or up into Div 2 so that it's an even 7-8 across the first 4 divisions, but I'm sure that will resolve itself next year.

Going to be some great contests across the Divs, here's my EARLY predictions:

Div 1:
First grade winners: Hunters Hill. Colts winners: Mosman. Relegated: Tough call, Lindfield.

Div 2:
First grade winners: Briars. Colts winners: Forest. Relegated: Ideally nobody but I'm not sure how Irish goes from two teams to five this year so I'll go then. Any word of if Women's teams count towards club champs this year? That could change my call here. The Irish womens side is an impressive outfit.

Div 3:
First grade winners: Hills. Colts winners: Knox. Relegated: Hawkesbury Valley? Barker and LCOI seem to have recruited well. Don't know much about the Raptors however. Hornsby a sneaky for Club Champs if the women's team points contribute. Div 3 going to be a much more exciting division this year, 4 great club additions.

Div 4:
Absolutely no idea tbh

Div 5:
McLean: Going to drink the Penrith kool-aid here. Grose: Let's go Pfitzy's men.

Div 6:
Meldrum: Merrylands, unless Harbour finds themself here....

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

News out of Waverley is that they've signed the Lebanese Lambo, Mr Yasmin.

Div 1 will be very interesting with an influx of premier grade players into subbies. This season is ramping up to be a gooden.

 

[BrumbyJack1]

We (Brothers) haven't really been part of the discussions regarding the grading of the competition until right at the very end and I must admit from my own selfish perspective I like it. We are simply matched with St Ives for scheduling purposes as they have no Colts. We have nothing to do with each other except play at the same ground against the same club at away games - they play home games at Hassell Park, we play at home at Roseville. A pretty neat solution imho. The handful of seniors we have are currently happily 'on ice' playing with Wakehurst in the third year of our constantly-changing JV. Relations between Wakehurst and ourselves are very good and they threw us a lifeline when we really, really needed it so we appreciate them as great rugby neighbours.

We had a three year plan to re-start the club and last year we had our own Colts but were placed in far too high a division (we lost 15/15). Miraculously most of the lads have returned and we have added a women's team as well in the second year of the plan. Next year we hope to have women's, Colts and Seniors as stand alone. It is a hard slog and you need a plan, a willingness to think outside the box and a lot of luck. What I have learnt at this level is there a critical mass of players (be it Colts, men or women) - I don't know what the number is and it differs for each cohort but you know it when you reach it. It is really hard to get to that critical mass, but once you get there it becomes easier to get more players as those you have recruit from within their circles so they begin doing your job for you. We're still picking up new players every week for example.

I completely agree with what people are saying about clubs ageing out. It was happening to us and we were in a death spiral that we just pulled out of before we impacted the ground. The average age of our Colts and Women's combined is about 20 (which brings its own challenges but ones I'm happy to deal with) while the average age of the club's player base has now been reduced by about 25 years in the space of two seasons.

There are challenges aplenty ahead of us I know, and I take nothing for granted in this game. We are surrounded by Shute Shield and bigger, more voracious subbies clubs, the area's demographics don't help and the general malaise surrounding community sport in general and community rugby in particular isn't conducive to recruiting. I would say though that a shortage of volunteers is probably our biggest challenge after recruiting players.

Still, the vibe is now positive, there are fresh faces aplenty, young players who don't aspire to higher rugby glory and appear to like playing for fun with their mates and last season's Colts massacres are a distant memory. So there is life even in the bowels of Subbies rugby.

 

[Pfitzy]

Grose: Let's go Pfitzy's men.

Liked just for this comment.

Remains to be seen whether Canterbury stack their 2s again - the logic is that these guys don't train, therefore aren't going to be selected for First Grade. TBH I don't think those guys care if it means winning another trophy at a canter.

If these are the final divisions, so be it. The issue with 6-club Divisions has always been the 3 rounds - particularly if you get a strong club at their ground twice. C'est la vie.

 

[Pfitzy]

I would say though that a shortage of volunteers is probably our biggest challenge after recruiting players.

^^^ This, this, and thrice this!

I'm going to start talking to the Dads and Mums - but the Dads in particular - to see if we can get a few helping hands of a Saturday for our Colts-age guys.

I also think the womens thing is a major positive and, if I had my preseason over again, I would have pursued this instead of Colts.

The logic being young women know young blokes, and young blokes are going to be there to support their young women, so they might as well grab a pair of boots and get stuck in!

 

[parkfootyenthusiast2]

We (Brothers) haven't really been part of the discussions regarding the grading of the competition until right at the very end and I must admit from my own selfish perspective I like it. We are simply matched with St Ives for scheduling purposes as they have no Colts. We have nothing to do with each other except play at the same ground against the same club at away games - they play home games at Hassell Park, we play at home at Roseville. A pretty neat solution imho.

Good to hear, thought you guys played with great spirit last year despite the circumstances. Best of luck to you and enjoy that great St Ives clubhouse! Will be watching keenly

^^^ This, this, and thrice this!

I'm going to start talking to the Dads and Mums - but the Dads in particular - to see if we can get a few helping hands of a Saturday for our Colts-age guys.

I also think the womens thing is a major positive and, if I had my preseason over again, I would have pursued this instead of Colts.

The logic being young women know young blokes, and young blokes are going to be there to support their young women, so they might as well grab a pair of boots and get stuck in!

Maybe this is the way... definitely a correlation between the joint mens and womens clubs and their success lately.. only have to look at the rise of Hornsby and Irish.

 

[BrumbyJack1]

Good to hear, thought you guys played with great spirit last year despite the circumstances. Best of luck to you and enjoy that great St Ives clubhouse! Will be watching keenly


Maybe this is the way... definitely a correlation between the joint mens and womens clubs and their success lately.. only have to look at the rise of Hornsby and Irish.

Thanks. Yes they're a good bunch of lads (the fact they returned for this season is testament to that). Last season's nadir (& says everything that needs to be about the Shute Shield rugby community) was when we turned up at Woollahra Oval to play Easts 4ths colts with 32 guys warming up in Easts gear (they were playing Newcastle away so only needed two Colts teams). We had 16 but missing one prop. I told the Easts coach and asked for unopposed scrums and he said we had to drop to 14 players. I explained we hadn't won a game and weren't much of a threat but the boys wanted a game. He said we could have 15 players if he could run on more than 23 because he wanted to give all his blokes a run. Referee played by the letter of the law as well and they won 86-0. Contrast this with Macquarie Uni the year before who gave us two players when we were short so we could both 'have a good 15 on 15 game'. One of them scored the winning try for us (tres embarrassing). Says all you need to know about the spirit of rugby and who has it.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

Can someone please explain the downfall of St Ives too me?

Great area in terms of rugby demographic and great facilities (i.e clubhouse) and if memory serves me correctly strong jnrs section?

 

[DaSchmooze]

One of them scored the winning try for us (tres embarrassing)...

... and nobody ever bought him a beer again

 

[BrumbyJack1]

... and nobody ever bought him a beer again

Ha ! Good story to tell your next club so they think twice about doing it to you again.

 

[MasterSergeant]

I'm actually a fan of this set up. Ideally you'd have one of Div 1 or Div 3 down or up into Div 2 so that it's an even 7-8 across the first 4 divisions, but I'm sure that will resolve itself next year.

Going to be some great contests across the Divs, here's my EARLY predictions:

Div 1:
First grade winners: Hunters Hill. Colts winners: Mosman. Relegated: Tough call, Lindfield.

Div 2:
First grade winners: Briars. Colts winners: Forest. Relegated: Ideally nobody but I'm not sure how Irish goes from two teams to five this year so I'll go then. Any word of if Women's teams count towards club champs this year? That could change my call here. The Irish womens side is an impressive outfit.

Div 3:
First grade winners: Hills. Colts winners: Knox. Relegated: Hawkesbury Valley? Barker and LCOI seem to have recruited well. Don't know much about the Raptors however. Hornsby a sneaky for Club Champs if the women's team points contribute. Div 3 going to be a much more exciting division this year, 4 great club additions.

Div 4:
Absolutely no idea tbh

Div 5:
McLean: Going to drink the Penrith kool-aid here. Grose: Let's go Pfitzy's men.

Div 6:
Meldrum: Merrylands, unless Harbour finds themself here....

I’ve heard Breakers have quite a few of last years Rats colts turn up in 2025. Roughies for the GF if true.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

I'll take a guess at Division 1 Kentwell, Colts, and Club Champions:


Kentwell: Colleagues or Waverley – with significant recruits coming in from Prems this season, I expect the standard of Kentwell to be much higher than last year.


Colts: If the rumors about Rats Colties are true, I'd expect Breakers to be strong contenders, possibly Mosman as well, given they have several returning players.


Club Champions: It’s likely to be a battle between the two eastern heavyweights – Waverley and Colleagues. If Colleagues can secure better results in Kentwell while maintaining consistency across other grades, the Club Championship is theirs for the taking.

 

[KentwellCup>ShuteShield]

Hearing whispers the very strong Colts program at Melwood Oval has gone under. Have withdrawn from Robertson Cup? Anyone have any intel on this? Forest Colts have been one of the strongest the past 5-10 years

Would be a tragedy, do you have it on good authority?

 

[footy_footy]

Only whispers and understand things aren't as bad as I was told - love the Subbies rumour mill! I think there will be a gap in the Colts Div 2 draw with Sydney Irish though. Unsure whether that will be a bye or a Radford team will fill it.