Super Rugby Au Rnd 3 Waratahs vs Force 5th March, Sydney

[barbarian]

As has been raised previously, rugby has probably missed the opportunity for a dedicated Western Sydney franchise (or there will be a 4- 5 year wait at best until the financial position has strengthened).
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I can't agree with this. NSW can't draw a crowd with one team, how would they go with two?

That's obviously an oversimplification, but the 'base' out there is just not big enough to sustain a pro team. Perth and Melbourne had serious financial backing, with a population at least on par with Western Sydney. And they had some rugby pedigree, I'd argue just as much as Western Sydney.

Sure there is Parramatta and Penrith, a few subbies clubs, but none have ever been powerhouses.

Best case you end up like GWS Giants. A decent team, small but passionate supporters, but never enough to really ever succeed in a way that other traditional clubs have.

 

[KOB1987]

It’s fairly common knowledge that the evolution of the Brumbies made them effectively the second NSW franchise. The rest is history. It’s fantasy to think that a third one can be scavenged from the NSW carcass. I do think said carcass can be reincarnated, but it will involve some people with energy and who give a fuck. Regardless, that has to be the priority. Any thoughts of a western Sydney franchise can be properly parked until at least after the 2027 World Cup (assuming we host it).

 

[eastman]

I can't agree with this. NSW can't draw a crowd with one team, how would they go with two?

That's obviously an oversimplification, but the 'base' out there is just not big enough to sustain a pro team. Perth and Melbourne had serious financial backing, with a population at least on par with Western Sydney. And they had some rugby pedigree, I'd argue just as much as Western Sydney.

Sure there is Parramatta and Penrith, a few subbies clubs, but none have ever been powerhouses.

Best case you end up like GWS Giants. A decent team, small but passionate supporters, but never enough to really ever succeed in a way that other traditional clubs have.

This might be the case now but definitely wasn't around 10-11 years ago when the Force were established. At that point in time rugby league clubs like Penrith and Parramatta weren't the powerhouses that they are now, and a professional rugby union club could have been a viable pathway for a talented footballer in the region.

Perth/ Melbourne having as much rugby pedigree as Western Sydney? What are you smoking? The region is a conveyor built of professional footballers and supports 4 professional rugby league teams in the region, with most of these players being of Pacific Islander background with familiarity and exposure to union.

You are completely overlooking the demographic of the region.

 

[barbarian]

. At that point in time rugby league clubs like Penrith and Parramatta weren't the powerhouses that they are now, and a professional rugby union club could have been a viable pathway for a talented footballer in the region.

What do you base this on? The Eels and Panthers were dominant, as they have been pretty consistently for 25+ years. Massive leagues clubs raking in millions in revenue, enormous junior programs, huge footprint in the region.

This was just as true in 2005 as it is now.

It's rolled gold league territory, and while there is certainly a population that is sympathetic to rugby (mainly PI communities) I don't think the support is wide or deep enough to have ever seriously supported a professional franchise.

But it's all hypothetical at this point, so we can agree to disagree.
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[eastman]

It's rolled gold league territory, and while there is certainly a population that is sympathetic to rugby (mainly PI communities) I don't think the support is wide or deep enough to have ever seriously supported a professional franchise.

Parramatta have always been a financial powerhouse (in terms of funding through the Leagues Club) but Penrith for example was nowhere near the slick professional club that it is now (it's close to the flagship franchise in the NRL).

The argument is comparative one - do you seriously think that Western Sydney is a worse location to have a franchise than Melbourne? Do you think the Melbourne Rebels have been successful?

 

[barbarian]

The argument is comparative one - do you seriously think that Western Sydney is a worse location to have a franchise than Melbourne? Do you think the Melbourne Rebels have been successful?

I thought Melbourne was the better option, yes. Australia's second largest city, big corporate support, good stadia, history of strong support for Wallaby games.

It has been successful in some ways, unsuccessful in others. On the field it's been mixed, they have developed some good talent, had a bit of support, but clearly it hasn't been a triumph.

But to be honest I can't see a Western Sydney side achieving better results, both on and off the field. Who knows, though, it's all hypothetical guesswork.

 

[Easy from the Stands]

Rob Kearney is good. Kahui and McIntyre aren’t

I'll go with Mehrtens assessment of JMac who said he had a good game. He has the runs on the board to assess a 10's game.
His defence was excellent. You may have missed the ankle missile that dropped the tahs player under the posts that allowed Kahui to get the steal - a very big turning point in the game. Also his speed to get to Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase) in centre field that pressured him into throwing the ball over the sideline. Miss that tackle & the tahs would have scored. The Tahs linespeed in the first 25mins were cutting off his outside supports forcing him to run a few more times than was ideal but he did that with purpose & did not turn the ball over. Give the guy a chance without writing him off as no good. Combinations take time to develop & it was his first real hit out with Cubelli & Kahui. I think the Force have got a really good long term 10. He is also a class goal kicker having led the pointscore in the Top14 for Clermont for some time.

 

[Derpus]

I can't agree with this. NSW can't draw a crowd with one team, how would they go with two?

That's obviously an oversimplification, but the 'base' out there is just not big enough to sustain a pro team. Perth and Melbourne had serious financial backing, with a population at least on par with Western Sydney. And they had some rugby pedigree, I'd argue just as much as Western Sydney.

Sure there is Parramatta and Penrith, a few subbies clubs, but none have ever been powerhouses.

Best case you end up like GWS Giants. A decent team, small but passionate supporters, but never enough to really ever succeed in a way that other traditional clubs have.

The way I see it, the more 'exclusive' rugby remains, the faster it will die. I think you are underestimating the capacity for Rugby support in Western Sydney (assuming we can successfully change it's image).

I also think you are overestimating the size and reliability of the 'base' in the East and North. The GPS school support, where the majority of our base historically came from, is diminishing (rapidly IMO).

You have to ask why the Waratah's can't draw a crowd? Is it really because there are no rugby supporters in NSW? I seriously doubt it. I have heard a thousand anecdotes about how 'this' person enjoys rugby but hates the Tahs etc. Yeah anecdotal and not hard data - but the Waratah's have an image problem which extends far beyond their poor performances of late.

Who's to say a team with broader appeal and no historical bias built into it's DNA won't have broader appeal? in fact, I think it almost certainly will.

In the medium to long-term future, Rugby needs to find a way to engage all of NSW or it will die. And given the state of this shitshow I don't see the harm in rolling the dice.

 

[Braveheart81]

I have heard a thousand anecdotes about how 'this' person enjoys rugby but hates the Tahs etc. Yeah anecdotal and not hard data - but the Waratah's have an image problem which extends far beyond their poor performances of late.

Who's to say a team with broader appeal and no historical bias built into it's DNA won't have broader appeal? in fact, I think it almost certainly will.

In the medium to long-term future, Rugby needs to find a way to engage all of NSW or it will die. And given the state of this shitshow I don't see the harm in rolling the dice.

It's a giant leap to suggest RA or someone else should spend $10+m over a couple of seasons on the hope that there are 10k+ people who would buy a season membership who currently don't go to any Waratahs games.

RA clearly don't have the money to take that sort of punt.

Someone else might, but likewise, it's going to receive no support from RA/NSWRU until at least such time as the new stadium is available at Moore Park.

The concept that NSWRU should have given their blessing for a GRR team to also base itself at Parramatta Stadium at the same time the Waratahs needed it was crazy.

 

[Derpus]

It's a giant leap to suggest RA or someone else should spend $10+m over a couple of seasons on the hope that there are 10k+ people who would buy a season membership who currently don't go to any Waratahs games.

RA clearly don't have the money to take that sort of punt.

Someone else might, but likewise, it's going to receive no support from RA/NSWRU until at least such time as the new stadium is available at Moore Park.

The concept that NSWRU should have given their blessing for a GRR team to also base itself at Parramatta Stadium at the same time the Waratahs needed it was crazy.

Yeah, I'm not really suggesting it needs to be done immediately or that it should have been GRR. I just think it's pretty clear that we need significant change.

I hate the 'it's too hard' argument. Is it easier to just watch Rugby slip away into oblivion?

Plus, fuck 'it costs too much' off for an excuse. RA and NSWRU let the game get to this point. To then turn around and say 'hey we are too broke to fix it, sorry' is just not good enough.

 

[Braveheart81]

I hate the 'it's too hard' argument. Is it easier to just watch Rugby slip away into oblivion?

Plus, fuck 'it costs too much' off for an excuse. RA and NSWRU let the game get to this point. To then turn around and say 'hey we are too broke to fix it, sorry' is just not good enough.

What does this even mean though? They should risk the collapse of the professional game across the country (which is what it would mean if RA went down this path and it failed) because they made poor decisions in the past?

I'm pretty sure none of the other franchises would be in favour of RA taking the bet that there are heaps of rugby fans in Western Sydney who would sign up for season tickets for a new team that is not the Waratahs.

It would be a sounder financial decision to take a year's worth of broadcast revenue to the casino and see if we can double it and if not, so be it, close the doors, at least we tried.

 

[Derpus]

Be as dismissive of my opinion as you want- we are rapidly going down the gurgler and every possible metric on which we could judge the health of the game supports that position be it revenue, TV or crowd numbers.

I really don't understand your obstinate defense of the status quo despite the state of the game. It's madness.

Ok, i don't think it's reasonable for RA to gamble the health of the game in other states, but i also think you are building a straw man. It should be possible to try and expand the appeal of the game without risking the health of all of rugby in Australia.

 

[barbarian]

So, Derp, what are we doing? Announcing the end of the Waratahs, and the creation of the NSW Banksias, to be based in Western Sydney?

The issues are many and varied, but I can't see what that solves. The flashing problem at the moment starts and ends with on-field performance. We need better players and more wins. Everything flows from that.

 

[Derpus]

Fuck it. It's not worth arguing about because nothing will happen either way.

 

[Braveheart81]

Be as dismissive of my opinion as you want- we are rapidly going down the gurgler and every possible metric on which we could judge the health of the game supports that position be it revenue, TV or crowd numbers.

I really don't understand your obstinate defense of the status quo despite the state of the game. It's madness.

Ok, i don't think it's reasonable for RA to gamble the health of the game in other states, but i also think you are building a straw man. It should be possible to try and expand the appeal of the game without risking the health of all of rugby in Australia.

It's not a defence of the status quo. It's the fact that creating a new team requires a very large investment.

RA can't make a very large investment without risking everything.

I don't really see how I am making a straw man argument. Unless someone else wants to 100% fund a new franchise and take zero dollars out of the overall broadcast revenue, any new team threatens the financial stability of the other teams.

I really don't understand how (hopefully) constructive criticism of an idea is seen as defence of the status quo.

 

[Derpus]

Fair enough. It is too expensive and too hard.

Maybe BH is right and all the systemic issues will dissolve when we start winning a few.

 

[barbarian]

You OK Derp? We're just trying to have a reasonable argument here, it's all this place is for.

 

[Derpus]

You OK Derp? We're just trying to have a reasonable argument here, it's all this place is for.

Yeah, just over it.

Don't think we are going to resolve it. And i don't think I'll be able to convince you that the Tahs and/or Rugby generally need broader appeal to stay viable and that means investing in it.

Plus - BH is probably right and it just can't be done. Which is even more depressing IMO.

 

[Braveheart81]

Maybe BH is right and all the systemic issues will dissolve when we start winning a few.

I don't think that either!

Things can be pretty stuffed and there's no easy solution to resolve it.

Good times.

 

[Braveheart81]

On a side note, it actually felt like the crowd out at this game wasn't awful, all things considered.

Did anyone else from here go?