Super Rugby Au Rnd 3 Waratahs vs Force 5th March, Sydney

[Brumby Runner]

Fuck it. It's not worth arguing about because nothing will happen either way.

You put up the good fight D, but you have a formidable opponent in BH. BH's opposition to any discussion on the topic makes me think he has a role in the NSWRU. He couldn't do a better job scuppering a discussion if he was the CEO.

If anything were to be tried at any time, then it would be imperative for the new club/franchise to be completely independent of the NSWRU. Otherwise it would surely be set up to fail.

 

[barbarian]

You put up the good fight D, but you have a formidable opponent in BH. BH's opposition to any discussion on the topic makes me think he has a role in the NSWRU. He couldn't do a better job scuppering a discussion if he was the CEO.
l.

No need for personal attacks here. We're all just fans, with no power at all. This is empty discussion that isn't going to impact on anything in any tangible way.

BH doesn't work at the NSWRU, he just has an opinion that differs from yours. I don't work in rugby either, I'd assume nobody here does.

So we all put up our theories and opinions, but let's not pretend any of this actually matters. It's why Derpus' frustration is a little weird - be frustrated at us all you like, but we don't control any of this! And that's probably for the best.

 

[Derpus]

No need for personal attacks here. We're all just fans, with no power at all. This is empty discussion that isn't going to impact on anything in any tangible way.

BH doesn't work at the NSWRU, he just has an opinion that differs from yours. I don't work in rugby either, I'd assume nobody here does.

So we all put up our theories and opinions, but let's not pretend any of this actually matters. It's why Derpus' frustration is a little weird - be frustrated at us all you like, but we don't control any of this! And that's probably for the best.

Eh, im kinda frustrated because yours is the prevailing view and i think it's the wrong one. But, im mostly frustrated because the Tahs (and Wallabies) suck.

 

[barbarian]

Eh, im kinda frustrated because yours is the prevailing view and i think it's the wrong one. But, im mostly frustrated because the Tahs (and Wallabies) suck.

That's entirely fair enough on both counts.

It's weird (and sad) that I am more excited for Brumbies vs Reds than I have been for any Tahs game for a long while.

 

[Braveheart81]

You put up the good fight D, but you have a formidable opponent in BH. BH's opposition to any discussion on the topic makes me think he has a role in the NSWRU. He couldn't do a better job scuppering a discussion if he was the CEO.

If anything were to be tried at any time, then it would be imperative for the new club/franchise to be completely independent of the NSWRU. Otherwise it would surely be set up to fail.

It's my opinion, nothing more.

The only way I could be seen to scupper the discussion is if the reasoning behind my opinion is so strong it makes the original proposition so weak it's pointless to continue arguing for it. If I'm not doing that then tell me why I'm wrong and back it up.

I'm not shutting down discussion of this, I welcome it. I'm going to voice my opinion though and I'm going to use reasoning and evidence to try and support that.

I see little point in leaving positions that I think are nigh on impossible unchallenged though. What benefit does it achieve if everyone here thinks the action RA should take is completely infeasible.

I may as well suggest that we sell the currently unsold broadcast rights to the UK and Europe for $50m a year from next season once people have had a taste of it via the WorldRugby website and that we should increase our advertising revenue by 200% by signing better sponsors for more money and then we can both add an extra team and bring back a bunch of players we've lost from Europe.

 

[Derpus]

I still think you are misrepresenting my position. Again, i don't think it has to be tomorrow and i think it can be done in a manner that doesn't disproportionately threaten rugby in other states.

For example (and i don't think for a second we have the institutional intelligence, resources and long-term planning capabilities to actually pull this off - just spitballing):

Start small and build from the base. Start with schoolkids and grass roots. Expand the influence of club rugby and generate more support out west. There are plenty of communities out there that would be interested in Rugby, or come from countries that have traditionally played Rugby.

Once there is a greater level of engagement on a smaller level you can plan for expansion on a higher level. You know, looking at a time frame of 5-10 years (or even more) before you think about creating a new team. Set up pathways for the development of talent for the club before it even exists. The talent out west is there to be exploited.

Then, once you've laid the groundwork and the financial situation of Rugby in Aus is slightly more secure (e.g. after a Lions tour and a RWC) you start a western Sydney team.

Or, hell, just rebrand the fucking Waratahs to have broader appeal as Barb said. Barb asks what that will solve? well, it'll expand the appeal to a city of 5 million rather than a few suburbs of a few hundred thousand.

 

[Braveheart81]

I still think you are misrepresenting my position. Again, i don't think it has to be tomorrow and i think it can be done in a manner that doesn't disproportionately threaten rugby in other states.

For example (and i don't think for a second we have the institutional intelligence, resources and long-term planning capabilities to actually pull this off - just spitballing):

Start small and build from the base. Start with schoolkids and grass roots. Expand the influence of club rugby and generate more support out west. There are plenty of communities out there that would be interested in Rugby, or come from countries that have traditionally played Rugby.

Once there is a greater level of engagement on a smaller level you can plan for expansion on a higher level. You know, looking at a time frame of 5-10 years (or even more) before you think about creating a new team. Set up pathways for the development of talent for the club before it even exists. The talent out west is there to be exploited.

Then, once you've laid the groundwork and the financial situation of Rugby in Aus is slightly more secure (e.g. after a Lions tour and a RWC) you start a western Sydney team.

Or, hell, just rebrand the fucking Waratahs to have broader appeal as Barb said. Barb asks what that will solve? well, it'll expand the appeal to a city of 5 million rather than a few suburbs of a few hundred thousand.

I think this is a better starting point. The challenge at that grassroots level is that everything is run by volunteers. On a junior club basis, here are the junior clubs across Sydney.

https://www.sjru.com.au/club-directory/

There are maybe 20 junior clubs covering the Hills, Parramatta, Penrith and everything else "west" and "north west".

There are about 40 junior clubs covering the Eastern Suburbs, Northern Suburbs, Northern Beaches and Sutherland Shire.

There's a pretty reasonable population split between the two and the former covers a far greater land area.

It's hard to create clubs out of nothing and RA/NSWRU certainly don't have the financial power to do it without volunteers.

What they should be doing is offering free level 1 coaching courses etc.

I'm still not sure that rebranding the Waratahs would achieve anything. I just don't believe there are more than a handful of fans out there who would sign up for season tickets purely because you changed the name of the Waratahs. The concept that there are people ready to commit time and money to a pro rugby team but only if it's got a different name to the one that is available to them currently seems really tenuous to me. That sort of person that says that will just find another excuse when what they're asking for can no longer be used as an excuse.

 

[Drew]

The problem with the “west” is its a huge sprawling area. And if only a few teams are in-dispersed across that vast area, it might be hard to make a second Super Rugby in Sydney to work. Same as how a Country team would find it hard to gain traction as it’s a big area with no base. The Wanderers in the A-league hit the ground running, the Giants still struggle to get any traction. If the ARU wants to expand the game in the western suburbs, they need to look at where those teams have gone right and wrong. As has been discussed on the Waratahs thread, engaging with the public school system out there would be a good start. Gala days of 7s or 10s in all the different school zones will hopefully attract more kids to the game from league. One thing that should be remembered is all these kids play league, because that’s their option. The Ellas came to rugby because they were deemed too small for the Rabbitohs rep teams, Maurice Longbottom was playing A Grade for La Perouse because he was going to be too small for anything beyond that and he is now a star of the 7s circuit. Bigger and taller kids who might not fit the parameters of a rugby league player but are good players might find a place in the game if they’re exposed to it. As has been said, it may not happen overnight, but it can happen. We just need the kids to give a shit, then give it a Western Super Rugby team a try.
Further to the concept, if there was a second NSW Super Rugby team, I think specific rugby strongholds like Newcastle, the Central West, Far North Coast, et al should be seen as feeder systems for specific teams, I.e. Central West players are aligned to the western team

 

[dru]

Sydney is battling to support one Super Rugby franchise (and, arguably, losing the battle), and the answer is to start up another one?

Spare me.

No. Eastern suburbs rugby heartland has turned it's back on the Waratahs who in turn have turned their back on western Sydney. Rarely does such an opportunity show itself.

 

[dru]

I thought that there had been proposals in the recent past with claims of funds and ready to put up for a western Sydney based team. It was rejected. Didn't GRR have a proposal?

If my recollection is correct, then the argument of "where is the money coming from?" is moot. It wasn't wanted even with (a claim of) the money.

Problems in NSW are deeper than the availability of funders.

 

[Drew]

To me a western suburbs team would be a while off, whether someone could fund it or not. Firstly, we don’t have the depth for another Super Rugby team. Secondly, rugby would need a stronger footprint in the western suburbs for a team to succeed.I’m not saying in time that won’t change, but now doesn’t seem to be the time to do it.

 

[barbarian]

Eastern suburbs rugby heartland has turned it's back on the Waratahs who in turn have turned their back on western Sydney. Rarely does such an opportunity show itself.

What is your evidence for both of these claims? I can't see how the Waratahs have 'turned their backs on Western Sydney' when they are playing more games there than ever before.

Add in a couple of recent Wallaby games and you could argue Western Sydney has never been better treated by rugby.

Note that all of these games have produced mediocre crowds, so RA/NSWRU aren't exactly getting the love back from this supposed 'heartland' area.
.

 

[wamberal]

No. Eastern suburbs rugby heartland has turned it's back on the Waratahs who in turn have turned their back on western Sydney. Rarely does such an opportunity show itself.

Everybody has turned their backs on the Tahs, including fans in the greater west (and there must have been some). There is no magic bullet. The popularity of Super Rugby has been sliding for a long time in Sydney.

The main mission for the Waratahs is to win bloody games. A secondary mission is to play attractive rugby. If they can manage that, the fans will return. From north, south, east and west. I promise you.

 

[Braveheart81]

I thought that there had been proposals in the recent past with claims of funds and ready to put up for a western Sydney based team. It was rejected. Didn't GRR have a proposal?

Yes there was a GRR proposal to have a team based at the same ground as where the Waratahs were playing a lot of their games due to there being no Sydney Football Stadium.

Unsurprisingly NSWRU/RA didn't throw their support behind it. They would have been absolutely crazy to.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yes there was a GRR proposal to have a team based at the same ground as where the Waratahs were playing a lot of their games due to there being no Sydney Football Stadium.

Unsurprisingly NSWRU/RA didn't throw their support behind it. They would have been absolutely crazy to.

Really? The bloke who was going to put those funds up now has two franchises in MLR in the States. I happened to know the going rate for a franchise in that competition. And it's $25m USD a piece. Which involve a $10m licence fee and a minimum of $15m operating capital. Add to that he's in the process of setting up regional academies and hubs in both Austin and LA with the existing Rugby communities in those regions to expand the games footprint in schools etc.

I'm from the Western half of the City. My region which has over 350k people living in it and rapidly growing (will likely double that in the next 10-15 years) only has two clubs. Neither play in the Sydney competition because they have more competition playing in the Illawarra competition as opposed to the anything they'll find in Western Sydney. I can tell you right now if he was willing to pump the kind of resources into a WS team here that would have made a monumental difference. And maybe, just maybe. It would have forced the Tahs to get more proactive. Even if that meant only in the Eastern and Northern areas of the city.

 

[Braveheart81]

Really? The bloke who was going to put those funds up now has two franchises in MLR in the States. I happened to know the going rate for a franchise in that competition. And it's $25m USD a piece. Which involve a $10m licence fee and a minimum of $15m operating capital. Add to that he's in the process of setting up regional academies and hubs in both Austin and LA with the existing Rugby communities in those regions to expand the games footprint in schools etc.

I'm from the Western half of the City. My region which has over 350k people living in it and rapidly growing (will likely double that in the next 10-15 years) only has two clubs. Neither play in the Sydney competition because they have more competition playing in the Illawarra competition as opposed to the anything they'll find in Western Sydney. I can tell you right now if he was willing to pump the kind of resources into a WS team here that would have made a monumental difference. And maybe, just maybe. It would have forced the Tahs to get more proactive. Even if that meant only in the Eastern and Northern areas of the city.

All the reasons you cite are exactly why it would have been insane for NSWRU/RA to give it their blessing.

Why would they support the destruction of their own asset for the benefit of someone else's? With four teams to generate revenue for RA through broadcast rights it would have also brought down the overall value of what they had to sell in regards to whatever replaced Super Rugby.

Obviously it's now moot because GRR never happened due to COVID and maybe it would have been better for rugby overall but you can't expect RA/NSWRU to destroy their own business.

If the same proposal came along when the Waratahs were permanently back at Moore Park and not having to share the same stadium then it would be a very different conversation.

The amount of investment in MLR is also largely irrelevant. Any franchise fee paid to GRR is meaningless for rugby in Australia. Would the same level of local investment happen given there's already local players to sign.

More professional contracts in Australia is clearly a good thing for professional rugby players in Australia but further cannibalising our slim ranks of quality local professionals probably isn't good for our other teams.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

All the reasons you cite are exactly why it would have been insane for NSWRU/RA to give it their blessing.

Why would they support the destruction of their own asset for the benefit of someone else's? With four teams to generate revenue for RA through broadcast rights it would have also brought down the overall value of what they had to sell in regards to whatever replaced Super Rugby.

Obviously it's now moot because GRR never happened due to COVID and maybe it would have been better for rugby overall but you can't expect RA/NSWRU to destroy their own business.

If the same proposal came along when the Waratahs were permanently back at Moore Park and not having to share the same stadium then it would be a very different conversation.

The amount of investment in MLR is also largely irrelevant. Any franchise fee paid to GRR is meaningless for rugby in Australia. Would the same level of local investment happen given there's already local players to sign.

More professional contracts in Australia is clearly a good thing for professional rugby players in Australia but further cannibalising our slim ranks of quality local professionals probably isn't good for our other teams.

Mate, what assets do you think the Tahs have in Western Sydney let alone actual connections with the Rugby playing/supporting community out this way? Honestly.

Truthfully, such a team would barely eat into the current bulk of the Tahs fanbase. And I would argue even with the collapse of GRR and possible move across to Super Rugby Au would have allowed the Tahs to focus on the Eastern half of the city as their core Sydney based territory. Which being totally honest is where the bulk of their base reside.

 

[Braveheart81]

Mate, what assets do you think the Tahs have in Western Sydney let alone actual connections with the Rugby playing/supporting community out this way? Honestly.

Truthfully, such a team would barely eat into the current bulk of the Tahs fanbase. And I would argue even with the collapse of GRR and possible move across to Super Rugby Au would have allowed the Tahs to focus on the Eastern half of the city as their core Sydney based territory. Which being totally honest is where the bulk of their base reside.

The fact that for 2020, 2021 and possibly 2022 they need to play a significant amount of their games at Parramatta. That is the primary reason.

It's hard to focus on the eastern half of the city at a time when the only ground they can play at there is poor for rugby and they want to limit the number of games they have at the SCG.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The fact that for 2020, 2021 and possibly 2022 they need to play a significant amount of their games at Parramatta. That is the primary reason.

It's hard to focus on the eastern half of the city at a time when the only ground they can play at there is poor for rugby and they want to limit the number of games they have at the SCG.

They've played games out of both Leichardt and Brookvale in the recent past. There's little reason as to why they couldn't again. Sure, they're not great grounds but both the Tigers and Sea Eagles play out of them and I'd bet the Tahs would draw better crowds to both (especially Brookvale) than Bankwest.

And adding to that. Purely playing a couple of games in Parramatta is very different that building and maintaining actual roots and connections in the wider region. The Tahs could do it. But whether the will let alone the resources exist to do so in the manner that is needed is questionable.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think this is a better starting point. The challenge at that grassroots level is that everything is run by volunteers. On a junior club basis, here are the junior clubs across Sydney.

https://www.sjru.com.au/club-directory/

There are maybe 20 junior clubs covering the Hills, Parramatta, Penrith and everything else "west" and "north west".

There are about 40 junior clubs covering the Eastern Suburbs, Northern Suburbs, Northern Beaches and Sutherland Shire.

There's a pretty reasonable population split between the two and the former covers a far greater land area.

It's hard to create clubs out of nothing and RA/NSWRU certainly don't have the financial power to do it without volunteers.

What they should be doing is offering free level 1 coaching courses etc.

I'm still not sure that rebranding the Waratahs would achieve anything. I just don't believe there are more than a handful of fans out there who would sign up for season tickets purely because you changed the name of the Waratahs. The concept that there are people ready to commit time and money to a pro rugby team but only if it's got a different name to the one that is available to them currently seems really tenuous to me. That sort of person that says that will just find another excuse when what they're asking for can no longer be used as an excuse.

Good post braveheart and the essence of your thread is if you think you can just rebrand the tahs or play games at bankwest stadium to win over western Sydney is as you say fool hardy as lot of different challenges and levers required to be addressed as part of a comprehensive and coherent strategy for western Sydney (that also considers tying in other regions like Newcastle is good big picture thinking).

It is challenging but RA can’t afford to ignore this challenge as you either grow or die as league, soccer and afl are certainly not sitting back but pushing ahead taking on these challenges. But continuing on with status quo for western Sydney for rugby is not an option unless raising the white flag for rugby to be long term irrelevant and shrinking niche sport. As you say the fact kids in west play league or don’t play league because too small or too tall is the opportunity as is sevens and touch which offers alternatives and way to start to get kids involved, whilst targeting public’s schools bigger challenge but got to try and maybe with easier products like sevens / touch as starting point to get some better foundations / levers to leverage.