Super Rugby Au Rnd 3 Waratahs vs Force 5th March, Sydney

[Rugbynutter39]

Mate, what assets do you think the Tahs have in Western Sydney let alone actual connections with the Rugby playing/supporting community out this way? Honestly.

Truthfully, such a team would barely eat into the current bulk of the Tahs fanbase. And I would argue even with the collapse of GRR and possible move across to Super Rugby Au would have allowed the Tahs to focus on the Eastern half of the city as their core Sydney based territory. Which being totally honest is where the bulk of their base reside.

Mate, what assets do you think the Tahs have in Western Sydney let alone actual connections with the Rugby playing/supporting community out this way? Honestly.

Truthfully, such a team would barely eat into the current bulk of the Tahs fanbase. And I would argue even with the collapse of GRR and possible move across to Super Rugby Au would have allowed the Tahs to focus on the Eastern half of the city as their core Sydney based territory. Which being totally honest is where the bulk of their base reside.

I actually doubt if the western Sydney grr team would have hurt the tahs and in fact the opposite as would have provided tahs opportunity to better market, engage and connect with its traditional fan base in north and east, as given crowds now 3k to 5k it suggests this view is possibly right. Look what happened when tahs played at manly in heart of northern beaches it got good crowd.

I still think the answer is we need two teams focused on specific regions but think we lost opportunity to fund this when turned down grr proposed investment. And if needed initially to be filled with imports to establish it while developed western Sydney grass roots so be it. There are ways to make it happen. But unless private equity investment prepared to back this western Sydney team of course won’t happen.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I actually doubt if the western Sydney grr team would have hurt the tahs and in fact the opposite as would have provided tahs opportunity to better market, engage and connect with its traditional fan base in north and east, as given crowds now 3k to 5k it suggests this view is possibly right. Look what happened when tahs played at manly in heart of northern beaches it got good crowd.

I still think the answer is we need two teams focused on specific regions but think we lost opportunity to fund this when turned down grr proposed investment. And if needed initially to be filled with imports to establish it while developed western Sydney grass roots so be it. There are ways to make it happen. But unless private equity investment prepared to back this western Sydney team of course won’t happen.

Hugely missed opportunity. One we'll likely not see again. But probably the most pathetic element to it was after they'd seen the threat off Andrew Hire made a statement that they were going to develop a strategy and plans for the region which I took with a grain of bullshit. Which I was right. As they were the typical empty rubbish you hear from time to time about the region . Chucking a game or two at Bankwest isn't a strategy.

 

[dru]

Hugely missed opportunity. One we'll likely not see again. But probably the most pathetic element to it was after they'd seen the threat off Andrew Hire made a statement that they were going to develop a strategy and plans for the region which I took with a grain of bullshit. Which I was right. As they were the typical empty rubbish you hear from time to time about the region . Chucking a game or two at Bankwest isn't a strategy.

I am going to repeat what I said earlier as so many stalwarts seem to reject it.

Waratahs have lost the Sydney rugby heartland of the SRU largely in the east and northern suburbs, or perhaps never had them due to the attitude of some traditional clubmen. They have done little to nothing to attract the western suburbs.

Problems at the club are not simply the playing roster, development and recruitment. Nor just the coach. Issues lie deeply.

 

[barbarian]

Problems at the club are not simply the playing roster, development and recruitment. Nor just the coach. Issues lie deeply.

Who is rejecting that though? Everyone here is in furious agreement the Tahs are a basket case from top to tail, and we've been in furious agreement for years. We just disagree on the solutions.

 

[dru]

Who is rejecting that though? Everyone here is in furious agreement the Tahs are a basket case from top to tail, and we've been in furious agreement for years. We just disagree on the solutions.

I've gone back over recent posts and far enough B. Apologies.

We can agree as well that there is plenty of work to do.

 

[wamberal]

Who is rejecting that though? Everyone here is in furious agreement the Tahs are a basket case from top to tail, and we've been in furious agreement for years. We just disagree on the solutions.

I think we all agree that Roger Davis should pack his attache and get the fark out of our lives. Forever and ever.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Who is rejecting that though? Everyone here is in furious agreement the Tahs are a basket case from top to tail, and we've been in furious agreement for years. We just disagree on the solutions.

It's also part of why I think RA missed a trick with not getting a team in Western Sydney. The clubs behind the SRU are overwhelmingly based in the Eastern/Northern half of the city. Alongside the vast bulk of the Rugby playing and supporting population. That's how things have evolved over time. Look at turnouts at Brookvale. Or the club GFs held at North Sydney. There's no point pretending. This is the area the Tahs should be focusing on with their limited resources and why both the NSWRU and RA should have opened the door to someone willing to invest in WS. I genuinely believe everyone all round would have been stronger for it.

The Tahs could have focused on opening better communication with the SRU and developing strategies within those areas to get more people involved. While the likes of Gilchrist could have put up the money to build the team and the infrastructure below it in the form of regionally based hubs and academies designed to develop participation and player pathways in WS.

You can dismiss the $50m USD he has shelled out for two franchises in the States. But that shows the level of investment he is willing to take in order to get something like this up and running. Not to mention the millions more he'll be spending on development in both cities in the coming years. It would also have provided us with a much greater bargaining chip with the likes of NZ. We have 6 teams in place and ready to go would have been a better position than having to strong arm them into accepting that we wanted 5 teams or nothing.

 

[Derpus]

Everybody has turned their backs on the Tahs, including fans in the greater west (and there must have been some). There is no magic bullet. The popularity of Super Rugby has been sliding for a long time in Sydney.

The main mission for the Waratahs is to win bloody games. A secondary mission is to play attractive rugby. If they can manage that, the fans will return. From north, south, east and west. I promise you.

See, I think you are only partly right. The Tahs never had broad appeal. Even at their peak the only people who cared were the middle/upper class folk who lived in the North and East. So, sure we've lost that base due to poor performance.

But, it's inherently capped at a low ceiling because it was never popular anywhere outside those suburbs. Ever. Not once in history. And no one ever seriously attempted to address this issue.

I don't think trying to get back to 2003 is the way forward.

I also don't know why people think I am suggesting expanding into Western Sydney as a quick fix or a magic bullet that has to happen tomorrow. I think it is key to making Rugby sustainable in Sydney and NSW in the long term. My dream would actually be three teams - Eastern/Western Sydney and Regional NSW.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

See, I think you are only partly right. The Tahs never had broad appeal. Even at their peak the only people who cared were the middle/upper class folk who lived in the North and East. So, sure we've lost that base due to poor performance.

But, it's inherently capped at a low ceiling because it was never popular anywhere outside those suburbs. Ever. Not once in history. And no one ever seriously attempted to address this issue.

I don't think trying to get back to 2003 is the way forward.

I also don't know why people think I am suggesting expanding into Western Sydney as a quick fix or a magic bullet that has to happen tomorrow. I think it is key to making Rugby sustainable in Sydney and NSW in the long term. My dream would actually be three teams - Eastern/Western Sydney and Regional NSW.

Yeah. The idea that winning as the fix all some would like to believe is just not realistic. It will help bring back some of the traditional base. Which should be a goal but it won't address the real fundamental issues of neglect and disinterest in a large and growing segment of Sydney's population. Neither will throwing the region a couple of token games for the record. What it requires is a long term commitment of resources within a clear and workable development plan that involves a strong sustainable focus of participation via schools and clubs both existing and new (and by new I mean seeding clubs) and the implementation of robust player pathways that don't purely operate as funnels to the exists district clubs but look to develop new districts from the ground up over literally 10+ years. That is the scope of the issue. Now, the Tahs could be that organisation if they 1) had the resources. Which they don't. And 2) actually had any interest in doing so. Which from my experience they seemingly lack.

Now some may argue that what I have suggested isn't the case or necessary. Or that it is unreasonable to expect the Tahs to pour so much focus on one region at the expense of others. But, I argue that a lot of this wouldn't in fact be necessary if the NSWRU and the Tahs had actually tried to at any time in their long history had properly attempted to connect with the region.

 

[barbarian]

Now some may argue that what I have suggested isn't the case or necessary.

Again i don't think anyone is going to argue with you. It's a great idea and we should do it.

Two things can be true here. We should grow and develop the game in Western Sydney, but also if we started to win more games it would generate interest as well. There are multiple ways to skin a cat here and we should be trying every one that we can.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Again i don't think anyone is going to argue with you. It's a great idea and we should do it.

Two things can be true here. We should grow and develop the game in Western Sydney, but also if we started to win more games it would generate interest as well. There are multiple ways to skin a cat here and we should be trying every one that we can.

Winning would help in terms of presenting people with an attractive proposition but the returns will be far below that of extensive development. Kids see their heroes playing on TV and want to emulate them. They can do that easily with League as there are clubs everywhere. In the suburb I grew up in there were 2 League clubs. One in each of the suburbs either side of it etc. If the Tahs began consistently winning a kid who wanted to play the game would have to travel 20-30 minutes in traffic in order to find a club. That's the issue. While I don't expect each and every suburb to be hosting a club as even League clubs are feeling the crunch these days. But one within 10 minutes of where they live would be a solid set up.

Using my area as an example. We have two full service Rugby clubs in the Campbelltown Harlequins and Camden Rams. These are the only clubs for populations of roughly 300k people a population that has grown by around 50% in the last 10 years and likely to see similar growth in the next 10. Both clubs are part of the Illawarra RU. That shouldn't be the case. They should be members of their own district. The Macarthur-Wollondilly Districts Rugby Football Union. Featuring between 8-12 clubs. With 5 or 6 in the next 5 years and 8-12 in the follwoing 5 after that growing with the region. This would fundamentally change the game in the region. But that requires money, time and consistent effort. Winning may bring in some more eyes. Many returning. A few new. But getting kids playing and parents participating will have far greater effects long term.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Hugely missed opportunity. One we'll likely not see again. But probably the most pathetic element to it was after they'd seen the threat off Andrew Hire made a statement that they were going to develop a strategy and plans for the region which I took with a grain of bullshit. Which I was right. As they were the typical empty rubbish you hear from time to time about the region . Chucking a game or two at Bankwest isn't a strategy.

+101

 

[Brumby Runner]

See, I think you are only partly right. The Tahs never had broad appeal. Even at their peak the only people who cared were the middle/upper class folk who lived in the North and East. So, sure we've lost that base due to poor performance.

But, it's inherently capped at a low ceiling because it was never popular anywhere outside those suburbs. Ever. Not once in history. And no one ever seriously attempted to address this issue.

I don't think trying to get back to 2003 is the way forward.

I also don't know why people think I am suggesting expanding into Western Sydney as a quick fix or a magic bullet that has to happen tomorrow. I think it is key to making Rugby sustainable in Sydney and NSW in the long term. My dream would actually be three teams - Eastern/Western Sydney and Regional NSW.

On the money D. Perhaps the earliest date for something to happen would be when the Tahs re-establish themselves at Moore Park. But work should be happening in the schools in the western region already. And I repeat, it might not be possible, but the Tahs and NSWRU should have nothing to do with a new franchise in the west. Can it be set up to answer direct to RA?

Competition between the two franchises is necessary.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Winning would help in terms of presenting people with an attractive proposition but the returns will be far below that of extensive development. Kids see their heroes playing on TV and want to emulate them. They can do that easily with League as there are clubs everywhere. In the suburb I grew up in there were 2 League clubs. One in each of the suburbs either side of it etc. If the Tahs began consistently winning a kid who wanted to play the game would have to travel 20-30 minutes in traffic in order to find a club. That's the issue. While I don't expect each and every suburb to be hosting a club as even League clubs are feeling the crunch these days. But one within 10 minutes of where they live would be a solid set up.

Using my area as an example. We have two full service Rugby clubs in the Campbelltown Harlequins and Camden Rams. These are the only clubs for populations of roughly 300k people a population that has grown by around 50% in the last 10 years and likely to see similar growth in the next 10. Both clubs are part of the Illawarra RU. That shouldn't be the case. They should be members of their own district. The Macarthur-Wollondilly Districts Rugby Football Union. Featuring between 8-12 clubs. With 5 or 6 in the next 5 years and 8-12 in the follwoing 5 after that growing with the region. This would fundamentally change the game in the region. But that requires money, time and consistent effort. Winning may bring in some more eyes. Many returning. A few new. But getting kids playing and parents participating will have far greater effects long term.

Given the similar population bases, you'd think the Campbelltown/Camden area could be served by a similar competition to the JID comp in Canberra.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Given the similar population bases, you'd think the Campbelltown/Camden area could be served by a similar competition to the JID comp in Canberra.

I'd settle for a concerted effort to expand the games reach in terms of participation and clubs at present. But it is an interesting question if something akin to what I suggest occur. Then may be. Looking at the developments either approved or planned we have Gilead and Appin to the south of Campbelltown. Gilead will have 7,000 houses with a population (going from the average 2.6 people per residence) of 17-18,000. While there are plans to put 20k houses. Then there's Menangle Park which will feature yet another 6-7k houses not 5 mins from both Campbelltown and Camden. Then there's Wilton which is 15 minutes down the road where they plan of having a whole town with up to 35k houses. Those are just the ones that have solid plans. There's talk of another sizeable development at Cawdor with is on the southern most border of Camden proper. Then there's still development to occur in Oran Park, Gregory/Gledswood Hills and Edmondson Park.

So it could be possible to see Camden and Campbelltown joined by Oran Park, Gregory/Gledswood Hill, Menangle Park, Gilead, Appin, Edmondson Park and Wilton. All from smart planning focusing on growth areas within the region. And without a team or two being seeded in the older suburbs in the northern most areas of the region or Leppington that could fall into either one of Macarthur or Liverpool.

But what I'm looking at is more having new districts grow to the point where they can either form a senior competition to rival the Shute Shield or join the SS as standalones. For the record something similar to this should be planned for the Illawarra as well. Which would have the added advantage of actually having several clubs already in existence.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Given the similar population bases, you'd think the Campbelltown/Camden area could be served by a similar competition to the JID comp in Canberra.

I'll highlight the general breakdown of the respective 'zones' within the greater Western Sydney region that I would look to development.

- Canterbury/Bansktown
- Parramatta
- Penrith
- Hawkesbury/Blue Mountains
- Liverpool
- Blacktown
- Macarthur and
- Bradfield (in the future)

This would form the spine of a WS competition. With the potential to include the Illawarra. All with between 8-12 clubs forming the base and feeding directly into them.

 

[wamberal]

On the money D. Perhaps the earliest date for something to happen would be when the Tahs re-establish themselves at Moore Park. But work should be happening in the schools in the western region already. And I repeat, it might not be possible, but the Tahs and NSWRU should have nothing to do with a new franchise in the west. Can it be set up to answer direct to RA?

Competition between the two franchises is necessary.

A genuinely independent new franchise in NSW? With guaranteed funding for x years? The only constraint is on the player supply side. The last thing I would want to see is a rugby retirement home.

 

[Derpus]

A genuinely independent new franchise in NSW? With guaranteed funding for x years? The only constraint is on the player supply side. The last thing I would want to see is a rugby retirement home.

Has to be supported by local player development and that should be built before the franchise.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Has to be supported by local player development and that should be built before the franchise.

Not necessarily before such a franchise is established. At a minimum as the franchise is established. The goal of such a franchise should be to draw players back from overseas initially while the systems are set up and development works undertaken. I actually think such set ups would have an overall shorter turnaround from establishment to production that in other locations.

As for the ownership. I'd be fine with it being a privately owned franchise if there's a commitment to building the game in the region. Which as per this conversation will be needed.