So where to from here?

[H...]

There's a lot of nonsense being typed around here. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Look at the sides that won World Cups. They are all experienced men. If New Zealand wins on Sunday, we are looking at 2011, 2007, 2003 and 1999 all being won by experienced teams. The core of the side that beat us last night is playing their THIRD tournament. We have a young core group who can develop into a fantastic side. To do that they need some experienced heads around. For example, ditching Vickerman would be stupid in the extreme. He has the physicality and -- more importantly -- the attitude to use it that is sorely lacking from a number of our forwards.

Settle down, people. Youth breeds error. The antidote is to build experience, not get rid of it.

We haven't had a forward pack that consistently turns up for 10 years. The problem(s) is(are) not a lack of experience.

 

[H...]

We need composure and decision-making. Not just another round of exciting x-factor man-boys who can make all the same mistakes next time round.

To use deans-speak, this round of rwc "learning" (= pain) is the sort of painful experience the younger 2/3 of the squad can really build on, with the right direction.

The right decision making would have allowed the wobs to take it to the next level, but what do you expect from a bunch of youngsters? In this case, 4 more years might be just long enough to learn how to control and win tough games the smart/hard way rather than rely on the Beale/Ioane/JOC (James O'Connor)/Cooper miracle.

Rugby isn't as complicated as we like to make out. The team was tactically bankrupt. Either the coach is sending the wrong message, or the players aren't listening. If they aren't listening, the coach doesn't have appropriate sanctions in place.

These aren't 14 year olds, they are grown men. Explaining away stupidity (the 5th box kick, for instance) with the "youth" justification is merely sticking your head in the sand and aimlessly looking for positives that don't exist.

 

[Swarley]

I think we start from the Spring Tour. Cut anyone who isn't performing. This includes players who make no impact, players who have attitude problems, players who cannot/will not defend, players who give away penalties, props who can't scrummage etc.
We need to pick a game plan. Work something out! Devise a structure, a few set plays, please! After that, hire the best scrum coach in the world. It's disgraceful that after years of knowing our scrum is below par, we still struggle with it. Pick players like Dan Palmer who can scrummage- No point in having ball running props if they've given away to many penalties to run with it! Our locks whilst packing down are also disgraceful. Of all the scrums I've seen at the RWC, our locks are bound the loosest out of all of them. A massive gap, hindering our front row. We also need to develop a few #6/#8 options. Dennis, Schatz, Gill, Mowen- we take 40 over to Europe, why not give them a go? Oh, and a few halfbacks. Burgess is officially a European player now, so take Phibbs (not Phipps) and Lucas along too. Can't be worse that what we've done before.

Spring Tour 2012 Training Squad (if we're not taking an extended group over to Europe):

Props: Kepu, Slipper, Palmer, Alexander
Hookers: Moore, Polota-Nau, Charles, Hanson
Locks: Horwill (c), Simmons, Vickerman, Timani
Blindsides: Schatz, Elsom, McCalman (I know some are opposed, but he's an Elsom type skillset with a higher workrate)
Opensides: Pocock (vc), Gill, Robinson
Number Eights: Dennis, Mowen
Scrumhalves: Genia (vc), Phibbs, Lucas, Phipps
Fly-halves: Barnes, Cooper
Centres: O'Connor, Horne, Tapuai
Wingers: Ioane, Turner, Ashley-Cooper, Morahan
Fullback: Beale

 

[vidiot]

Rugby isn't as complicated as we like to make out. The team was tactically bankrupt. Either the coach is sending the wrong message, or the players aren't listening. If they aren't listening, the coach doesn't have appropriate sanctions in place.

These aren't 14 year olds, they are grown men. Explaining away stupidity (the 5th box kick, for instance) with the "youth" justification is merely sticking your head in the sand and aimlessly looking for positives that don't exist.

You're right, it isn't complicated.

If Genia looks around and there isn't a forward pod lined up to hit the ball up and return it, and Quade has gone deep to indicate he doesn't want it, or Genia thinks that Quade is looking like fucking it up, Genias option is to run it (and get monstered) or box kick it.

There it is.

Now, if Deans hasn't got them giving him other options, or trusting his 10, Genia is pretty much up the proverbial shit creek.

 

[tigerland12]

Agree Swarley, would be no harm bringing players like Shatz, Gill, Lucas, Dennis, Palmer ect on this tour.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think we need to either convert Cooper into a player who can defend at 10 or get rid of him. He isn't adding nearly enough to be curtailing the game of Kurtley Beale who is without doubt one of the best players we have.

 

[louie]

Spring Tour 2012 Training Squad (if we're not taking an extended group over to Europe):

Props: Kepu, Slipper, Palmer, Alexander
Hookers: Moore, Polota-Nau, Charles, Hanson
Locks: Horwill (c), Simmons, Vickerman, Timani
Blindsides: Schatz, Elsom, McCalman (I know some are opposed, but he's an Elsom type skillset with a higher workrate)
Opensides: Pocock (vc), Gill, Robinson
Number Eights: Dennis, Mowen
Scrumhalves: Genia (vc), Phibbs, Lucas, Phipps
Fly-halves: Barnes, Cooper, To'omua, Leallifano
Centres: O'Connor, Horne, Tapuai
Wingers: Ioane, Turner, Ashley-Cooper, Morahan
Fullback: Beale lucas or some like that here

I highlighter those in bold that would be pointless to take (they won't be here for the next world cup so why bother touring them) but also position we need to develop more depth.

 

[H...]

You're right, it isn't complicated.

If Genia looks around and there isn't a forward pod lined up to hit the ball up and return it, and Quade has gone deep to indicate he doesn't want it, or Genia thinks that Quade is looking like fucking it up, Genias option is to run it (and get monstered) or box kick it.

There it is.

Now, if Deans hasn't got them giving him other options, or trusting his 10, Genia is pretty much up the proverbial shit creek.

If the fly-half (or another back capable of kicking the ball) isn't available and willing to kick the ball downfield after the halfback has waited 15+ seconds with the ball available at the back of the ruck, he needs to be dropped.

The box kick proved to be an efficient way of gifting away the ball without gaining any territory to speak of. It's unfathomably daft. Genia is not capable of executing it effectively on a consistent basis, and the chasers are innefective when chasing.

 

[RedsHappy]

Agree Swarley, would be no harm bringing players like Shatz, Gill, Lucas, Dennis, Palmer ect on this tour.

From the Reds zone and if a biggish squad, I wouldn't forget Shipperley, Lance, or D Murphy. Major talent there, for the future.

 

[light]

Spring Tour 2012 Training Squad (if we're not taking an extended group over to Europe):

Props: Kepu, Slipper, Palmer, Alexander (Will Robinson be ready?)
Hookers: Moore, Polota-Nau, Charles, Hanson
Locks: Horwill (c), Simmons, Vickerman, Timani
Blindsides: Schatz, Elsom, Higgenbotham
Opensides: Pocock (vc), Gill/Robinson/Saffy
Number Eights: Dennis, Mowen, Palu
Scrumhalves: Genia (vc), Lucas, Phipps
Fly-halves: Barnes, Cooper
Centres: O'Connor, Horne, Tapuai, McCabe
Wingers: Ioane, Turner, Ashley-Cooper, Morahan
Fullback: Beale

 

[Scarfman]

Only players who have kept their positions after this world cup IMO.
1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Alexander
4. Horwill
5.

A staggering post. We fail to front up in the tight 5 and the only guy you drop is Vickerman?

Let's just say I would be working from the other end of the tunnel - keep Vickerman and look around for who can partner him. Vickerman might stay for the Lions tour, you know.

 

[Braveheart81]

@ light

McCabe won't be on the Spring Tour. He has a date with the surgeon.

 

[RugbyReg]

you know? Let's stop rebuilding or building for 2015 (or 2013).

Let's see who plays best in Super Rugby season 2012, have some sort of sense about how we want to play each game and then pick the best team from that. If that means Vickerman is there, so be it. Let's get the Wallaby team back to being a REPRESENTATIVE team of the best players in Australia in their position. Not one developing for a tournament multiple years down the track.

 

[light]

Scarfie, I think Robinson would have made a huge difference to our pack. IMO he is still the best prop in the country, Moore is without doubt the best hooker we have and Horwill is our captain, although he needs to take more leadership in the line-outs.

Alexander or Kepu for the 3. jersey.

 

[Slim 293]

Horwill doesn't call the lineouts at the Reds...

Thats not the type of lock he is...

 

[louie]

you know? Let's stop rebuilding or building for 2015 (or 2013).

Let's see who plays best in Super Rugby season 2012, have some sort of sense about how we want to play each game and then pick the best team from that. If that means Vickerman is there, so be it. Let's get the Wallaby team back to being a REPRESENTATIVE team of the best players in Australia in their position. Not one developing for a tournament multiple years down the track.

that would make sense reg, why would we do that? we're a brand. not a country.

 

[DPK]

Horwill doesn't call the lineouts at the Reds...

Thats not the type of lock he is...

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[RedsHappy]

you know? Let's stop rebuilding or building for 2015 (or 2013).

Let's see who plays best in Super Rugby season 2012, have some sort of sense about how we want to play each game and then pick the best team from that. If that means Vickerman is there, so be it. Let's get the Wallaby team back to being a REPRESENTATIVE team of the best players in Australia in their position. Not one developing for a tournament multiple years down the track.

Key point RR, almost deserves a thread. The concocted ARU and Deans obsession with the 2011 RWC as the be-all-and-end-all for the 2009-11 Wallabies has ended in tears and flatness. As it was almost always bound to do and, now, worse, the everyday casual Wallaby fan, so crucial to annual $ income, won't today be left with a great feeling of 'how good was that!' but rather 'is that all we ever had?'.

Building good wins, or narrow but very well-executed losses with great heart, along the annual Test path is so much healthily a way to build both code income and real fan adhesion than these grandiose 'we're going to arrive the right place' in X years dreams and promises of delayed gratification. The grandiosity only pays off if you win the whole shebang. If you build a truly excellent team before that time and that delivers much exciting rugby along the way, it's the best way of winning the 4 year prize. Delivering lots of mediocrity for fans along the way, whilst promising 'the ultimate prize will come', and then not getting close, is the worse combination of all in terms of protecting the fragile rugby code share in Aus.

 

[Loki74]

that would make sense reg, why would we do that? we're a brand. not a country.

Not just a brand. A whole series or brands loosely joined together in a joint venture marketing deal. We have the O'Connor brand, the Cooper brand. Buy up big today.

 

[Cardiffblue]

that would make sense reg, why would we do that? we're a brand. not a country.

Hey Louie, can you explain that one. It's something that I've wondered if it was the case but can't get my head around. You saying that the Australian rugby team is not the rep team of the country but a marketable 'brand' quite separate from rugby in Australia. If so, then I think someone needs a serious rethink. Welsh people 100% behind Wales and see the team as representing the country- not 'the dragons' or some other bullshit franchise name.