thierry dusautoir
Alan Cameron (40)
but if clubs stop paying players than there needs to be soem real auditing on uni providing scholarships to players......only seems fair
Shute Shield 2012
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
- Start date
- Status
The Galah
Darby Loudon (17)
Seems like this Tower of Babel's days are numbered.......- I direct members attention to today's Inner West Courier and the seemingly more than fledgling plans of Balmain Rugby to promote a competition " bridging the gap" between Shute Shield and Super 15 . Mr Warren Livingstone President of that proud longstanding Shute Shield just side says the days of Shute Shield are "numbered". To which I reply what gap has to be bridged other than the one that Sydney Uni players can't overcome when they run out for the Waratahs. The Fanatics in which I apprehend he played no small part in promoting may have been a success but that is for our national team . Methinks Mr L badly underestimates the loyalty of the grass roots to club rugby.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Sydney Uni have simply out resourced other clubs and out grown the Shute Shield competition.
It's very much like the Big Supermarket chains competing with the little corner grocery or liquor store.
It's no good getting angry with them, they're just very good at it.
And it's not just about scholarships though, it's having 4 full time coaches, the track record of pathway to Super Rugby and beyond, world class gym and pool training facilities, global/national sponsors and a well worked alumni.
To see for yourself, browse through the sponsors on their website and then compare them with your own favourite club's sponsors....no Joe's Fruit Shop or Manny's Panel beaters to be seen here.
No one can match them in depth of playing strength or their recruitment offer.
Occasionally, like Eastwood last year, they'll be beaten in a final, but as Eastwood have seen this year, it's tough to be able to sustain a challenge against such might, year in, year out.
I would never say give up against them, but other clubs need to be developing very different strategies if they want to compete with Uni.
They are the benchmark and any clubs out there planning on doing more of the same and expecting different results against them have, in effect, adopted Insanity as their club mantra.
It's very much like the Big Supermarket chains competing with the little corner grocery or liquor store.
It's no good getting angry with them, they're just very good at it.
And it's not just about scholarships though, it's having 4 full time coaches, the track record of pathway to Super Rugby and beyond, world class gym and pool training facilities, global/national sponsors and a well worked alumni.
To see for yourself, browse through the sponsors on their website and then compare them with your own favourite club's sponsors....no Joe's Fruit Shop or Manny's Panel beaters to be seen here.
No one can match them in depth of playing strength or their recruitment offer.
Occasionally, like Eastwood last year, they'll be beaten in a final, but as Eastwood have seen this year, it's tough to be able to sustain a challenge against such might, year in, year out.
I would never say give up against them, but other clubs need to be developing very different strategies if they want to compete with Uni.
They are the benchmark and any clubs out there planning on doing more of the same and expecting different results against them have, in effect, adopted Insanity as their club mantra.
PumpkinHead
Stan Wickham (3)
All fair points and I have just read the Colts page all either complaining or throwing their hands up in the air. The reason Uni/The Brisbane Broncos/The Reds or any business for that matter is as follows:
- Work Harder, Work Smarter than your competitors
- Recruit players that will do the above - Not always the best players but the most dedicated and receptive players
- Vision from GM to 3rd Colts Manager must be the driving force behind the club.
- No idea is a new idea - If Uni/Broncos/Reds train 3 times a week + Gym etc, that is the standard, don't complain improvise/adapt get creative
- Bottoms up!! Its the colts and lower grade depth that will win competition, it is a process but it does not have to be an expensive one
- If clubs have money to invest - Invest infrastructure (Coaches/S&C/Training Equipment/Oval Hire for extra training)
- If you want to be the best act & look the best - Uni/AB's/Broncos all do this better than anybody as do the best companies in the world.
I think North's have done a good job at trying to replicate what Uni have done... Their is no shame in that, in fact that is what clubs should be trying to do, not complaining or moaning but going about making it a viable option for kids go to their club and "WORK HARDER/WORK SMARTER"
I have seen enough talent outside of Uni to know they do not have a mortgage on the best talent, they do however have a mortgage on the above points. A perfect example would be Uni 1st Grade in 2012 - James Riches/Ollie Atkins both 4th Graders in 2011/2010 respectively... Not great natural footballers, but correct attitude correct environment and hey presto you have a good 1st Grader in Riches and a 2 Cap Super Rugby Player in 2012.... Not the best players, the best workers in the best environment.
I know their will be the scholarship debate, but that is what it is. Doesn't mean they get all the best players every year, if so Baldwin, Walters, Wells, Connor, Wessels et al would have arrived and be playing for the students.
Ultimately what Uni and these other successful institutions are founded on are what this great country of ours was founded on... HARD WORK!!!
With that get stuck in 2013 and have a crack, don't sit back and come up with reasons why not... Come up with ways to copy/emulate/better the accepted bench mark.
Cheers
Pumpkin
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
The Shute Shield clubs rely heavily on money from sponsors to stay afloat. Since clubs starting paying their players the annual budget has grown. However, the expansion of Super Rugby and the decision by the Brumbies and Reds to require their Shute Shield players to play with local clubs and not return to Sydney has resulted in a less attractive product for sponsors. Most sponsors (I suggest) only provide money to Shute Shield clubs because the person allocating sponsorship money has some affiliation with the club ie used to play for the club, always supported the club, or both. Not because they expect any return on the investment. I believe Uni are in a better position than any other club by virtue of the fact that their graduates often end up in decision making positions in large businesses. If you look through the ranks of most other Shute Shield clubs these days you won't find the proliferation of doctors, stockbrokers, lawyers, business leaders etc that used to be the norm. You're more likely to find tradesmen who don't end up in a position where they can provide sponsorship money back to their clubs when they stop playing. Therefore Uni have an advantage (and good luck to them), but if we want to see a more open competition then somehow this advantage needs to be reduced.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Coach,
Moving ahead a few years, there will be plenty of Captains of Industry in the Big End of Town that will have graduated from other than Sydney Uni. Other Shute Shield clubs need to cozy up with the likes of UNSW, UTS, UWS, Macquarie Uni to reduce the competitive advantage Sydney Uni currently has with respect to attracting Colts, and Sponsorship from the Alumni.
Some clubs have already taken steps in this direction.
Sydney Uni is getting harder to get into, and some of the other Uni's "products" and reputations are catching up with Sydney Uni, and in some instances are "better" than the similar offering from Sydney Uni. As a consequence, some top students now choose to go to UNSW, UTS etc over Sydney. This porcess has been underway for a number of years, but there will still be a 10-20 year lag for these graduates to get to sponsorship allocating positions within the Major corporations.
Edit: Did I really spell it that way? OOps
Moving ahead a few years, there will be plenty of Captains of Industry in the Big End of Town that will have graduated from other than Sydney Uni. Other Shute Shield clubs need to cozy up with the likes of UNSW, UTS, UWS, Macquarie Uni to reduce the competitive advantage Sydney Uni currently has with respect to attracting Colts, and Sponsorship from the Alumni.
Some clubs have already taken steps in this direction.
Sydney Uni is getting harder to get into, and some of the other Uni's "products" and reputations are catching up with Sydney Uni, and in some instances are "better" than the similar offering from Sydney Uni. As a consequence, some top students now choose to go to UNSW, UTS etc over Sydney. This porcess has been underway for a number of years, but there will still be a 10-20 year lag for these graduates to get to sponsorship allocating positions within the Major corporations.
Edit: Did I really spell it that way? OOps
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Hugh, yes I know Randwick have had a relationship with UNSW for many years, but as far as attracting sponsors is concerned it's not the same as it would be if UNSW had a team in the Shute Shield. Sydney Uni do a lot to build support for their rugby team (and other sporting teams) within the student body and this carried through to the alumuni. I doubt there is the same activity taking place within UNSW towards Randwick, given that UNSW already have teams in the Subbies comps. For this to be really effective Randwick would need to merge with UNSW and present a joint venture team to the Shute Shield competition eg Randwick-UNSW. On this same theme, maybe some of the Shute Shield clubs needs to consider merging with the more successful and affluent Subbies teams like Balmain etc?
The Galah
Darby Loudon (17)
All preceding points well made and the smarter clubs - you have identified Norths and could add Manly - instead of bleating about Uni are getting on with it. The strong presence of Manly and Norths teams this weekend with at least in the case of Manly a heavy representation of colts from 2010 and 2011 atests to this. In terms of the alternate comp Balmain seeks to promote mergers of strong subbies clubs with Shute Shield sides opens up enormous possibilities without alienating the grass roots. It is important that teams play under a name and identity which is immediately recognisable from, in some cases 100 years or more existence rather than some notional identity removed from the very locale from which it seeks to draw players. That was the failing of the last venture - northern sydney playing out of Gosford? It was never going to fly.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
It will be interesting to see how attractive Gordon's new deal with UTS will be for prospective colts/past juniors. There are some scholarship incentives and hopefully with a decent plan for 2013 the club might retain it's strong junior base.
http://newsroom.uts.edu.au/news/2012/06/leading-sydney-rugby-club-teams-up-with-uts
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
I see Souths have selected Rob Horne in the centre and moved Nick Cummins to the wing at the expense of Ben Connolly.
With Tim Metcher named in the front row instead of Marcus Heather that gives them 109 player points, as Late Starter predicted earlier in this forum.
Is anybody out there able to explain how they are allowed to exceed the cap of 100 points?
The other SF teams points are:
Manly = 55
Uni = 42
Norths = 65
With Tim Metcher named in the front row instead of Marcus Heather that gives them 109 player points, as Late Starter predicted earlier in this forum.
Is anybody out there able to explain how they are allowed to exceed the cap of 100 points?
The other SF teams points are:
Manly = 55
Uni = 42
Norths = 65
Done that
Ron Walden (29)
You don't have to be a student at Sydney Uni to play for the Rugby team.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Souths have now moved Metcher to the bench and Heather is named in the starting line up again!
Any bets on how many minutes he plays before Metcher comes on?
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Waratah Rugby and Rugby News websites.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
See below:
7.3.2.2 In the Finals series if Clubs have consecutive grades playing in the same weekend and choose to play fresh reserves, these players will count towards the teams points cap.
So the teams without "consecutive grades" still playing have an advantage!
The Galah
Darby Loudon (17)
Do the sites list reserves ? - I thought not. Instinctively suspect because of season performances that Marlins is a stronger bench. In keeping with the spirit of disinformation - Cliffy Palu to turn out if Manly are playing in GF . He would surely be subject to the same apparent dispensations as Horne.
The Galah
Darby Loudon (17)
Done that, it hasn't been so since the 1980's when Uni were in Div 2 and had to haul guys out of the pub to play Smithfield and Campbelltown . The point is Uni partially as a result of the scars of the 80's and 90's has hitherto exploited a major selling point ( adding points to your UAI, getting a degree from a leading Uni when you'd struggle at TAFE etc ) in tems of recruiting the best players . As more thinking wags from visiting teams are fond of commenting Uni's best sponsor isn't Buildcorp its the taxpayer. However, deals like Gordon have apparently just done with UTS and with Norths , Manly etc catching up it could fairly quickly shift the balance. We could hasten to a new comp and in the process inadvertently throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Yes but the taxpayer also stumped up $45 million for the abortive Diveball World cup 2018 bid.
The Ratepayer is also an uncredited major sponsor for many clubs. Ground Rentals are nowhere near market rates. In some cases councils even waive ground rental charges in total.
Taxpayer/ratepayer "sponsorship" of sport is nothing new and long may it thrive.
Rugby administrators just need to make sure that that is wisely spent. I'm not entirely convinced that Rugby has a genuine strategic plan for the whatever Government funding it will receive for Rugby 7's at Rio 2016.
The Ratepayer is also an uncredited major sponsor for many clubs. Ground Rentals are nowhere near market rates. In some cases councils even waive ground rental charges in total.
Taxpayer/ratepayer "sponsorship" of sport is nothing new and long may it thrive.
Rugby administrators just need to make sure that that is wisely spent. I'm not entirely convinced that Rugby has a genuine strategic plan for the whatever Government funding it will receive for Rugby 7's at Rio 2016.
- Status