Should The Wallabies be doing a Bumala-y Yuurrama-y?

[Tex]

I'm under the impression that a haka is as much a display of respect as it is a direct challenge. The Kiwis can therefor argue that we should be honoured by their throat slitting and eye-bulging performances, while due to some pretty obvious cultural differences, we take it as a display of intimidation.

So yes, teams should be free to respond as they choose, provided it is within the realms of respect (i.e. no physical contact).

As for an Australian version? Honestly I don't think we're at a stage of reconcilliation and acceptance of Aboriginal culture, language and respect in the broader white Australian community for the performance of a dance by a privileged white group of athletes to be received as anything other than tokenistic.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agree. Let's stick with a public acknowledgement - as part of the broadcast someone from the local people should read the statement - and then build on it from there. Can't just drop these things in, and I find the bit where they just put it up on screen at the ground a little weak.

 

[wamberal]

I am certainly not an expert - but my understanding is that Australia's indigenous nations were (and still are) very diverse in their languages, customs, and traditions.


Who would decide the appropriate "dance"?


The haka has been very widely accepted in New Zealand culture for a long time.


Incidentally, the performance of the haka has become more and more rehearsed over the years - it used to be pretty perfunctory!

 

[Strewthcobber]

I am certainly not an expert - but my understanding is that Australia's indigenous nations were (and still are) very diverse in their languages, customs, and traditions.


Who would decide the appropriate "dance"?

I said it in another thread but we have an entire continent and 60,000 years worth of diverse indigenous cultures in Australia.

A representative Australian Aboriginal dance, song or just about anything, is about as meaningful as a representative Asian dance, or European dance. How can anything represent such diversity?

Whatever is chosen will be excluding more than its including.

 

[wamberal]

Having lived and worked in two Asian countries, I can confirm that there is no such thing as "Asia", or an "Asian identity" from the point of view of those who live there - it is a Western invention!


Europe is different these days, there is now a European identity. But Italy, for example, has only existed in its current form for a hundred and fifty years.

 

[Froggy]

I'm going to offend people here, but adopting some sort of aboriginal dance or ceremony before a test will be yet another bit of empty symbolism to keep the latte sipping crowd happy thet they're 'doing something' for the aboriginals. It's no different to all the other PC crap that we go on with to salve our conciences, like apologies, walking over the bridge, changes to the constitution etc.
While I don't have a problem with any of those things, we have an aboriginal population with infant mortality thirty per cent higher than the national average, male life expectancy 11 years shorter, unemployement three times the rest of the popultation and incarceration six times, and with all these 'wonderful' symbolic gestures none of this changes, only the conciences around universities, movie studios and inner city coffee shops.
This remains a national disgrace until someone gets off there arse and actually does something, rather than walking across Sydney bloody harbour bridge holding hands and singing Kumba-Ya.
Okay, that's off my chest, I'm just over the all symbolism, no action approach that seems to be the salve for the left.

 

[Tex]

I'm going to offend people here, but adopting some sort of aboriginal dance or ceremony before a test will be yet another bit of empty symbolism to keep the latte sipping crowd happy thet they're 'doing something' for the aboriginals. It's no different to all the other PC crap that we go on with to salve our conciences, like apologies, walking over the bridge, changes to the constitution etc.
While I don't have a problem with any of those things, we have an aboriginal population with infant mortality thirty per cent higher than the national average, male life expectancy 11 years shorter, unemployement three times the rest of the popultation and incarceration six times, and with all these 'wonderful' symbolic gestures none of this changes, only the conciences around universities, movie studios and inner city coffee shops.
This remains a national disgrace until someone gets off there arse and actually does something, rather than walking across Sydney bloody harbour bridge holding hands and singing Kumba-Ya.
Okay, that's off my chest, I'm just over the all symbolism, no action approach that seems to be the salve for the left.

I think you'll find most agree with your core points - that symbolism is essentially meaningless without appreciable improvements to the health, welfare and prospects of Aboriginal Australia.

No need to characterise this as a "left" vs "right" issue. It creates needless tension that only distracts from the real changes required. Consensus>political point scoring.

 

[drop kick]

I'm going to offend people here, but adopting some sort of aboriginal dance or ceremony before a test will be yet another bit of empty symbolism to keep the latte sipping crowd happy thet they're 'doing something' for the aboriginals. It's no different to all the other PC crap that we go on with to salve our conciences, like apologies, walking over the bridge, changes to the constitution etc.
While I don't have a problem with any of those things, we have an aboriginal population with infant mortality thirty per cent higher than the national average, male life expectancy 11 years shorter, unemployement three times the rest of the popultation and incarceration six times, and with all these 'wonderful' symbolic gestures none of this changes, only the conciences around universities, movie studios and inner city coffee shops.
This remains a national disgrace until someone gets off there arse and actually does something, rather than walking across Sydney bloody harbour bridge holding hands and singing Kumba-Ya.
Okay, that's off my chest, I'm just over the all symbolism, no action approach that seems to be the salve for the left.

The Aboriginal people i spoke to on the weekend didn't think it was tokenism, they thought it was a great idea.
You could argue that recognition in the constitution and the apology for the stolen generation are just symbolic gestures but I'm sure you'll find that they have widespread support throughout Australia's Indigenous population.
Perhaps the ARU should consult with Aboriginal communities to work out the most appropriate way forward.

 

[wamberal]

Which "Aboriginal communities" should the ARU consult with?


There are many. Not to mention Torres Strait communities.

 

[drop kick]

Which "Aboriginal communities" should the ARU consult with?


There are many. Not to mention Torres Strait communities.

It is no harder to consult with the Aboriginal peoples of Australia than it is to deal with any of diverse group in Australia. It has been done before and is being done at this moment with the move towards the recognition referendum.

 

[Froggy]

That may be the case with the people you spoke to on the weekend, but the people I have spent a lot of my life living with, working with and playing sport with want jobs, they want their kids off drugs and out of prison, they don't want their husbands to come home drunk and belt them. A lot of them don't even know what the constitution is!

 

[drop kick]

That may be the case with the people you spoke to on the weekend, but the people I have spent a lot of my life living with, working with and playing sport with want jobs, they want their kids off drugs and out of prison, they don't want their husbands to come home drunk and belt them. A lot of them don't even know what the constitution is!

Strangely enough it is possible to want both social change and recognition. I think you'll find most Aboriginal people do.

 

[Tex]

It's fair to say that neither path (the symbolic and the practical) should be considered a 'solution' alone, nor are they mutually exclusive.

This thread has all the hallmarks of descending into the old politics forum level of acrimony. Let's all keep this on point and impersonal yo

 

[Froggy]

If you read my first post, I am not opposed to the symbolism, it's just meaningless without action. The whole trouble is, we get the symbolism (go right back to Gough and land rights if you like) and everybody sits back and says 'ah, we've dealt with that, now I feel good about myself' and nothing more happens.
Look, when the referendum about the constution comes in I'll vote for it, but a lot of people will make sage speaches about a great leap forward, and nothing will change for the people I'm talking about.

 

[Tex]

I'm behind you 100% on that.

 

[ACT Crusader]

The Wallabies could all wear number 37 on their backs.....

Sorry I couldn't resist

 

[mxyzptlk]

I would prefer to see a push for the Haka to be stopped. I appreciate the spectacle but is it unreasonable to expect that the opposition stand still an watch (getting cold) while the Haka performing team get to stay nice and warm jumping around. Sadly the Kiwi's would be outraged if any team did there own thing while the Haka was being performed. How about they pick one or the other ..either Haka or anthem..just not both?

Does that apply to the Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, and every other Pacific Island team that has its own war dance as well? Good luck with that.

 

[mxyzptlk]

This is just awesome. Wheel out some chatty old aboriginal aunty to take her sweet motherfucking time shaking eeevery AB's hand.

Wheeling out a geezer works for Ireland.

 

[jollyswagman]

Does that apply to the Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, and every other Polynesian team that has its own war dance as well? Good luck with that.

Yep....it applies to all of the above and any other team that would like to take a few minutes for themselves to get fired up while expecting the opposition to stand there politely and watch. Personally I like to watch the Haka as it definitely creates some atmosphere but I do question the "fairness" or "expectations" of any opposing team's behavior during the "performance."

Would it be fair and reasonable after the Haka was performed, that we ask the AB's (or any other Haka performing team) to stand silently in a straight line and watch while the Wallabies take 2 minutes to form a huddle, have a chat, slap each other on the buttocks and belt out a few AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE'S......at least until the time when modern Australian society has figured out how best to reference to its own identity prior to kick-off that is.

 

[mxyzptlk]

I think the Haka fits the All Black team culture perfectly. From an outsider's perspective it seems like the Maori culture is strongly ingrained in NZ society, and in rugby in particular given the large percentage of players that are of Maori, or PI, decent. The All Blacks always seem to have at least half the team with a Maori or Islander background. I must admit that from time to time iv found it a bit awkward watching some guys who clearly have no maori background perform the haka.

Do you find these guys are awkward? At any rate, they completely buy into it.

I don't think an aboriginal war dance would fit the wallabies as well. Firstly, rightly or wrongly, very few Australian identify in any way with aboriginal culture. Part of that is because the aboriginal and TSI population in Australia is only about 2-2.5% of the population, compared to the Maori/PI population in NZ which is closer to 20%.

Question: What percentage of the Australian aboriginal population was wiped out after Europeans arrived? I'm in the U.S., and about 99% of the native population were killed or died out because of European colonization, and for that reason many Native Americans don't look too kindly on Columbus Day or the 4th of July (the U.S. Declaration of Independence calls the natives "merciless Indian savages"). Today they make up just under 1% of the overall population. Is it a similar situation down under?