School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Bowside]

It's apparently OK for them to be offered for academic or musical prowess, so why not sport? If you've got a kid who has some talent in one of those areas and has the opportunity to get good quality tuition/coaching at a private school and the school or its supporters are willing to pay for it, then I fail to see the issue.

I would rather the schools be open about this rather than, as Scarfy called it, a form of shamateurism.

Schools do not directly compete every weekend in the fields of music and academics. And schools normally offer academic scholarships at the start of highschool, not the start of senior. That's why people make a big deal about it.

At the end of the day the system and regulation are what I believe needs to be looked at. As someone said above, unless you are at a GPS school you hardly get a look in in rugby, and whilst that is not always true, it is for the most part and that needs to be fixed.

If you regulate scholarships in 'elite' schools and provide a competition and framework for rugby in 'non-elite' schools than the problem go's away.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

But Bowside, schools compete in the academic area for students all the time, because good students boosting their results in NAPLAN and leavers exams are good advertisements for the schools. Principals in public complain about these league tables, but privately they pay huge amounts of attention to them. Good results in sport provide a similar advertising, so it's little wonder that they want to attract the best athletes, hence the scholarships. To ever properly eradicate this, you'd have to eliminate any kind of league tables in either academic or sporting pursuits. Which won't happen.

And I would argue also that GPS rugby teams are not the only sources of rugby players. There are also suburban clubs that do their part, though perhaps not in the same numbers.

 

[Bowside]

But Bowside, schools compete in the academic area for students all the time, because good students boosting their results in NAPLAN and leavers exams are good advertisements for the schools. Principals in public complain about these league tables, but privately they pay huge amounts of attention to them.

Thats not actually completely true. The demand for elite private schooling is so high that many of the schools in question (GPS) are not academically competing for students, because they get so many applications every year they have to turn away 50-100 kids (in some cases more). And if they do offer academic scholarships, it is on a smaller scale than the rugby ones. And the way the OP system works in QLD, 2 or 3 really bright kids in a grade of 200 can actually lead to less OP-1's, depending on how the grade performs as a whole on the qcs. The 20-40 grand a year the school is forgoing by offering a few kids academic scholarships would be better spent on high quality teachers as this is more beneficial for the whole cohort as in qld you need the whole cohort to perform well in order to get the really good academic scores.

This is what annoys me about sport scholarships in their current form, they are either to scam parents into thinking one school is better for their child than another because they won a rugby match with a team half full of mercenaries, or the school doesn't need to scam the parents at all and the scholarships are just to appease the old boys.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

That could well be true for QLD and I defer to your greater knowledge there. With that said, if the results don't keep coming on the academic and sporting front, the schools lose some of their prestige and parents will be less likely to pay the fees. That is, the desirability and therefore demand drops. It's in their interest to keep that demand high and a way that they do that is to keep a steady stream of good students and athletes coming through the system. I'd be interested to know the comparison in numbers between academic and sporting scholarships at GPS/PSA schools across the country, because I'd be mildly surprised if the sporting ones were greater. I won't deny that there has been a move toward the private system and it's been happening steadily since the 1960's. My family will more than likely be joining that move, to be honest.

As far as scamming the parents, well they are private organisations and those parents are paying with their own money, so I don't really care. It's a market place at the end of the day and I think that most parents probably don't feel like they are being ripped off, even if they are. If my kids go to a PSA school, the sporting results of said schools will have very little influence on me.

 

[lincoln]

After thinking about this issue a bit, I've come to the conclusion that this scholarships issue is a lot brouhaha over not much. Given that the GPS schools are considered "elite" to begin with and are majority privately funded, what is the actual problem with them offering sporting scholarships? It's apparently OK for them to be offered for academic or musical prowess, so why not sport? If you've got a kid who has some talent in one of those areas and has the opportunity to get good quality tuition/coaching at a private school and the school or its supporters are willing to pay for it, then I fail to see the issue.

I would rather the schools be open about this rather than, as Scarfy called it, a form of shamateurism.

1. First the NSW AAGPS needs to amend its articles of association/rules to allow sport scholarships.
2. When this happens we can look forward to the Shore Old Boys buying a very high quality rugby team for the school with imports from all over the globe - ipso facto end of competition. Is this what people want?

 

[Jets]

Things are different in Qld than NSW from my understanding. From what I understand all Qld GPS schools apart from Terrace have students who have access to the school through their rugby ability. Different schools do this to different degrees. What I think everyone up here wants is transparency on the issue so everyone knows what is going on. This would kill the rumors saying such and such school has bought 25 players for the rugby season etc.
I have no issue with schools offering scholarships or bursaries for students and figure on rugby terms that it is still just 15 players on both teams. I do believe that with rugby moving to term 3 in Qld next year it will be more imperative for schools to have good programs as there is plenty of lead in time for the rugby season.

 

[International Badboy]

1. First the NSW AAGPS needs to amend its articles of association/rules to allow sport scholarships.
2. When this happens we can look forward to the Shore Old Boys buying a very high quality rugby team for the school with imports from all over the globe - ipso facto end of competition. Is this what people want?

could not agree more

 

[Man on the hill]

1. First the NSW AAGPS needs to amend its articles of association/rules to allow sport scholarships.
2. When this happens we can look forward to the Shore Old Boys buying a very high quality rugby team for the school with imports from all over the globe - ipso facto end of competition. Is this what people want?

1 - Include CAS in NSW quite happily
2 - What makes you think that only 1 school will open up the cheque book?

I recall well the Scots 1st XV for their centenary, very high resemblance to a previous NSW U16 XV and so many of them totally new to the school for years 11 & 12! & Cranbrook in the early 80’s imported at least 1 Australian schoolboy on scholarship.

Unfortunately scholarships appear to be part of the schoolboy rugby scene – it requires headmasters who are prepared to abide by their own charters to stop it. & don’t for a moment think it is restricted to Rugby

There is no shortage of deserving boys who might get a "mission" scholarship, or a music scholarship, or a group of well meaning supporters rally around and stump up the $$$$.

 

[lincoln]

1 - Include CAS in NSW quite happily
2 - What makes you think that only 1 school will open up the cheque book?

I recall well the Scots 1st XV for their centenary, very high resemblance to a previous NSW U16 XV and so many of them totally new to the school for years 11 & 12! & Cranbrook in the early 80’s imported at least 1 Australian schoolboy on scholarship.

Unfortunately scholarships appear to be part of the schoolboy rugby scene – it requires headmasters who are prepared to abide by their own charters to stop it. & don’t for a moment think it is restricted to Rugby

There is no shortage of deserving boys who might get a "mission" scholarship, or a music scholarship, or a group of well meaning supporters rally around and stump up the $$$$.

Point 1: The rules as they stand don't allow sports scholarships in the AAGPS - wasn't talking about CAS.
Point 2: Check out Shore's new grandstand next time you are going through Northbridge (or their boatshed at Gladesvillle) - built on Old Boy donations - this is a very rich community and will outbid the rest when it comes to scholarships - my point being do we want to let these guys loose with their cheque books and absolutely destroy the competition? I for one do not.

 

[baldingwingforward]

Point 1: The rules as they stand don't allow sports scholarships in the AAGPS - wasn't talking about CAS.
Point 2: Check out Shore's new grandstand next time you are going through Northbridge (or their boatshed at Gladesvillle) - built on Old Boy donations - this is a very rich community and will outbid the rest when it comes to scholarships - my point being do we want to let these guys loose with their cheque books and absolutely destroy the competition? I for one do not.

Well said Lincoln - and a very valid point, but why do they continue to allow Newington, Scots and Kings to get away with it year after year.

Can't the Shore old boys pay for some hot shot lawyers to slap a lawsuit on the repeat offenders? It is no secret who is on shall we say "an agreement" at some of the schools...

 

[Man on the hill]

...but why do they continue to allow Newington, Scots and Kings to get away with it year after year.

Same way that Joeys had K Beale a few years ago - these schools all have the "christian" system at their core - part of that includes a mission outreach prog. For Newington, the King of Samoa, or Tonga sent his boys there and ever since, there has been a steady flow of boys from one or the other country as part of a mission outreach prog. In GPS (Sydney), only High & Grammar are not church based schools.

Not saying it is right or otherwise, but i wonder did Joeys just get lucky with Beale, a genuine Christian influence at play that hit pay dirt, or do we assess it cynically?

 

[International Badboy]

Same way that Joeys had K Beale a few years ago - these schools all have the "christian" system at their core - part of that includes a mission outreach prog. For Newington, the King of Samoa, or Tonga sent his boys there and ever since, there has been a steady flow of boys from one or the other country as part of a mission outreach prog. In GPS (Sydney), only High & Grammar are not church based schools.

Not saying it is right or otherwise, but i wonder did Joeys just get lucky with Beale, a genuine Christian influence at play that hit pay dirt, or do we assess it cynically?

yes Beale was at Joeys since year 7 and i believe was almost to small to play 13As

 

[I like to watch]

That's surprising, I thought he was an early developer,and that he was big for his age in his early/mid teens.

 

[International Badboy]

He had all the skills and was alright hightwise but from watching games in 04 (his first year of opens) he sometimes defended at wing or fullback and was quite skinny

 

[young gun]

yes Beale was at Joeys since year 7 and i believe was almost to small to play 13As

My understanding is that KB (Kurtley Beale) was at Joeys because of his Grandfather and was there, as stated above, from year 7 onwards - I'm very much against the whole scholarship thing, but he wasn't a receipiant of one - he always seems to be dragged out as the prime example of this type of thread, but it just isn't so - there are plenty of other examples out there - maybe focus on those and don't disparage hi and his family - as is the cas when these claims are made.

 

[Man on the hill]

Young gun - go & read the thread again. Nobody was disparaging Beale. I introduced his name because I genuinely believed he was the recipient of a scholarship that was awarded based on a Christian Ministry outreach program. That it hit pay dirt for Joeys - lucky them!

 

[young gun]

Young gun - go & read the thread again. Nobody was disparaging Beale. I introduced his name because I genuinely believed he was the recipient of a scholarship that was awarded based on a Christian Ministry outreach program. That it hit pay dirt for Joeys - lucky them!

Oh, so that's why "genuine" was in italics! I wasn't specifically having a go at you, your comments always seem to be reasonable its just that his name invariably gets brought up - either way, if he started in year 7 and has under a Christan Ministry outreach program and was, even at that age, a fantastic rugby player, I wouldn't have a problem with it because he has grown through the school and is as much a pupil there as any other. A lot can happen over 6 years and he could, just have easily, been an ordinary player by the time Opens comes around - I think you're right, they hit pay dirt, and good luck to them.

 

[lincoln]

yes Beale was at Joeys since year 7 and i believe was almost to small to play 13As

Badboy - Kurtley was pretty big compared to the other boys in the U13A's when he was in year 8.

Also, I have no problems with Joey's support for indigenous boys - this is a broad brush program with someone of KB (Kurtley Beale)'s ability being the exception rather than the rule - very different to the mass inflow of talented sportsmen in years 9-12 that happens at some of the other schools.

BTW fellas we don't need to keep repeating names of these "lucky" schools who mysteriously seem to attract a wondrous array of talent year after year - we all know who they are.

 

[TigersFan5]

All GPS schools do it apart from Grammar and High(high only do it for Basketball)
Shore- Probably one of the least in this case
Newington- They do it like its meant to be done
Scots- Try to hide it , but fail considerably
Joeys- Deny it everywhere they go, but everyone knows they do
View- Hide it well if they do do it
Kings- Following in the paths of Newington at the moment

Not to have a got at any of these schools more of just putting them out there

 

[dermo]

All GPS schools do it apart from Grammar and High(high only do it for Basketball)
Shore- Probably one of the least in this case
Newington- They do it like its meant to be done
Scots- Try to hide it , but fail considerably
Joeys- Deny it everywhere they go, but everyone knows they do
View- Hide it well if they do do it
Kings- Following in the paths of Newington at the moment

Not to have a got at any of these schools more of just putting them out there

Give me an example of a Shore, Joeys, Scotts or View boy who is currently attending that school and is what we would consider an import (solely at the school for his rugby skill)