S15: Australia dont have depth

[Scotty]

There isn't much incorrect about what White says. Depth is not our strength, however I'd like to see his views on why SA teams haven't done better considering they do have these other competitions, plus no Rugby League to contend with?

Over 16 years of super rugby, there has by my count been the following number of winners:

NZ x 10
Aus x 3
SA x 3

2nd places

NZ x 7
Aus x 5
SA x 4

Should we be concerned about the affect that adding another SA super team next year will do to their depth?

 

[Scotty]

I might wish for that? Bruce, I couldn't give a shit either way - I just have an opinion I thought I would share.

I can't discuss with somebody who is just so negative. Best you top your glass of water mate, it's clearly half empty.

I don't think Bruce is being negative. The negative thought would be 'we are pretty average and there is no way of getting better'.

He is actually saying 'we won't settle for average, we want to be the best'.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

I don't think Bruce is being negative. The negative thought would be 'we are pretty average and there is no way of getting better'.

He is actually saying 'we won't settle for average, we want to be the best'.

He's ignoring that you have more players than ever before & also have more professional teams than ever before.

As far as he's concerned Aussie Rugby is in a worse state then ever - it's just something I whole heartedly disagree with.

The settling for average want to be the best thing, is related to the league/AFL competition you face - I just can't see that changing much myself & wouldn't die trying to change it.... maybe that's just me though

 

[Brisbok]

There isn't much incorrect about what White says. Depth is not our strength, however I'd like to see his views on why SA teams haven't done better considering they do have these other competitions, plus no Rugby League to contend with?

Over 16 years of super rugby, there has by my count been the following number of winners:

NZ x 10
Aus x 3
SA x 3

2nd places

NZ x 7
Aus x 5
SA x 4

Should we be concerned about the affect that adding another SA super team next year will do to their depth?

Quite an off topic comment Scotty, but it's hard to let that one fly through to the keeper. Playing depth is not the issue in South Africa. The issue is poor administration (which leads to poor coaching) and political intervention in sport (as is clearly illustrated by forcing the Kings to participate in Super Rugby when they are clearly not up to the task. They finished 2nd in the Currie Cup 'B' division last year.)

But don't you worry mate, there won't be another SA super team added to the comp next year. If you had been following it more closely you would have noted that SANZAR has an agreement with the broadcasters for a 15 team competition until 2015. If the Kings enter Super Rugby next year it will be at the expense of one of the existing SA teams.

But hey, we would be just as capable of bringing in another team full of foreign players just as the Rebels have done IF our depth was stretched.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Quite an off topic comment Scotty, but it's hard to let that one fly through to the keeper. Playing depth is not the issue in South Africa. The issue is poor administration (which leads to poor coaching) and political intervention in sport (as is clearly illustrated by forcing the Kings to participate in Super Rugby when they are clearly not up to the task. They finished 2nd in the Currie Cup 'B' division last year.)

But don't you worry mate, there won't be another SA super team added to the comp next year. If you had been following it more closely you would have noted that SANZAR has an agreement with the broadcasters for a 15 team competion until 2015. If the Kings enter Super Rugby next year it will be at the expense of one of the existing SA teams.

But hey, we would be just as capable of bringing in another team full of foreign players just as the Rebels have done IF our depth was stretched.

Indeed. Once (if) SA get their admin sorted I expect the boks and the yarp s15 teams to over run the dominance set by the ab's and nz s15 teams.

there is too much depth and structure not to.

 

[suckerforred]

The settling for average want to be the best thing, is related to the league/AFL competition you face - I just can't see that changing much myself & wouldn't die trying to change it.... maybe that's just me though

Yep is is just you. From an Oz point of view we don't want to settle to being 3rd or 4th on the ladder we want to be no.1 and if we don't continue to strive for improvement we will never get there. I don't think we should just give up...

Playing depth is not the issue in South Africa. The issue is poor administration (which leads to poor coaching) and political intervention in sport (as is clearly illustrated by forcing the Kings to participate in Super Rugby when they are clearly not up to the task. They finished 2nd in the Currie Cup 'B' division last year.)
.

You could also be talking about Australia here. Other then we know that we do loose some junior players to other codes so recognise the fact that until we can make Rugby attractive for the youngesters to stay in, we do have a depth problem.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Yep is is just you. From an Oz point of view we don't want to settle to being 3rd or 4th on the ladder we want to be no.1 and if we don't continue to strive for improvement we will never get there. I don't think we should just give up...

Your missing my point completely. Who said anything about giving up?

In the same way that I think rugby will never be the number one sport in football mad countries, I don't think it will ever be in Australia either. Some things you just cannot change - do you really think its' feasible that you can turn rugby into the biggest sport in Victoria? Or even Queensland? Really hand on heart? Really?

If you do then so be it, but I personally think striving for that goal will be a futile exercise. I just think that you should be sitting there with a glass half full feeling, as opposed to half empty.

 

[suckerforred]

Yeah, OK, point. Not going to stop us trying tough. Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land apong the stars. I supose what I am trying to say is that we (as in grassroots pasionate supporters) have been fighting for so long in this country to improve the profile / exposure of the game that when we have opportunities to make a difference, e.g. riding off the bacck of the Reds success, we don't want it to go to waste. As what happens with a lot of the good outcomes of the 2003 RWC.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Yeah, OK, point. Not going to stop us trying tough. Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you will land apong the stars. I supose what I am trying to say is that we (as in grassroots pasionate supporters) have been fighting for so long in this country to improve the profile / exposure of the game that when we have opportunities to make a difference, e.g. riding off the bacck of the Reds success, we don't want it to go to waste. As what happens with a lot of the good outcomes of the 2003 RWC.

yes, reading my earlier posts, I think was coming across a bit "you should stop, you aren't goign to get better".. didn't really mean to come across like that... wasn't my intended point. In fact, I think in amongst all the horse shit I wrote, all I was really saying is

Your glass is half full, not half empty.

Now that would have been bloody simpler wouldn't it.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Apologies, Major. I was probably more intemperate than I should have been. From an outsider's perspective your points have some validity but I feel very strongly that there is absolutely no room for complacency or self satisfaction about the situation with Australian rugby. Particularly with respect to the development of our sport here I see no vision, no strategic plan and no directed energy. Certainly relative to Australian Football we are slipping backwards quite rapidly and I worry that they may see us as being virtually irrelevant to their own programs of expansion.

 

[lincoln]

Apologies, Major. I was probably more intemperate than I should have been. From an outsider's perspective your points have some validity but I feel very strongly that there is absolutely no room for complacency or self satisfaction about the situation with Australian rugby. Particularly with respect to the development of our sport here I see no vision, no strategic plan and no directed energy. Certainly relative to Australian Football we are slipping backwards quite rapidly and I worry that they may see us as being virtually irrelevant to their own programs of expansion.

Auburn, Camden, Campbelltown, Glenmore Park, Hawesbury, Hills, Ingleburn, Liverpool, Penrith, Quakers Hill, Rooty Hill, South Campbelltown, South West, St Clair, & Wollondilly
AFL Junior Clubs in Western Sydney - it would seem that rugby is now a poor fourth in winter codes in this very large catchment area. Bruce is spot on with his fears.

 

[PaarlBok]

Quite an off topic comment Scotty, but it's hard to let that one fly through to the keeper. Playing depth is not the issue in South Africa. The issue is poor administration (which leads to poor coaching) and political intervention in sport (as is clearly illustrated by forcing the Kings to participate in Super Rugby when they are clearly not up to the task. They finished 2nd in the Currie Cup 'B' division last year.)

But don't you worry mate, there won't be another SA super team added to the comp next year. If you had been following it more closely you would have noted that SANZAR has an agreement with the broadcasters for a 15 team competition until 2015. If the Kings enter Super Rugby next year it will be at the expense of one of the existing SA teams.

But hey, we would be just as capable of bringing in another team full of foreign players just as the Rebels have done IF our depth was stretched.

That is hurting us. Kings the perfect example.

 

[lincoln]

Will search for some time series data to get a better sense of what is happening.
http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/auss...2CA25765C001953F5/$File/49010do012_200904.xls

 

[Jnor]

Will search for some time series data to get a better sense of what is happening.
http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/auss...2CA25765C001953F5/$File/49010do012_200904.xls

Good luck, Lincoln. The ABS website is a gigantic pile of excrement to try andd find anything useful out of. I find if you know the data series number it is easier to search in google and add 'inurl:abs.gov.au' or 'filetype:xls' to it

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Not really this time around, but I don't think that the bucket should be poured on just John:

Clowns to the left of him,​

Jokers to the right, here he is,​

Stuck in the middle of it all,​

That's the highlight of the thread so far

Certainly not all of us, Sandpit. Some of us realise that the last thing Australian rugby needs is the creation of synthetic entities where all the players have to be paid; large numbers of them have to be relocated to other states; and there is no chance of securing television coverage.

Bruce, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any great insights into the solution for this, having been away from home for quite a few years, and lacking the exposure to current club rugby that some here have. My opinion is that whichever way it is approached, whether via an ARC type setup (which was just used as an example, by the way), or building on current club rugby competitions, it will be a struggle to develop a marketable "product" which will attract enough viewers to get a broadcaster interested.

No doubt it can be done - we get live coverage of the ITM cup in the middle east, so there is obviously a market. I guess that coverage initially requires one of the NZ broadcasters to take a punt that they can sell enough advertising and get some more income from on-selling the rights to other broadcasters to justify covering the games. I can see how the local NZ market would make it a reasonable proposition before considering anything else, but I think the nature of the Aus viewing market makes it very difficult to replicate here. Of course I would be very happy to be proven wrong!

I feel very strongly that there is absolutely no room for complacency or self satisfaction about the situation with Australian rugby. Particularly with respect to the development of our sport here I see no vision, no strategic plan and no directed energy. Certainly relative to Australian Football we are slipping backwards quite rapidly and I worry that they may see us as being virtually irrelevant to their own programs of expansion.

Couldn't agree more. It seems that any improvements occur in spite of the overall lack of anything resembling a plan, rather than because of it. Your comment about Australian Football is right on the money. I don't think it's a coincidence that the turnaround in the Reds situation has come under a CEO who learned his trade in the AFL. Obviously the team doing well helps immensely, but there are a lot of things going on in parallel to get people engaged.

 

[Cutter]

Your comment about Australian Football is right on the money. I don't think it's a coincidence that the turnaround in the Reds situation has come under a CEO who learned his trade in the AFL. Obviously the team doing well helps immensely, but there are a lot of things going on in parallel to get people engaged.

An interesting observation.

 

[Scotty]

Quite an off topic comment Scotty, but it's hard to let that one fly through to the keeper. Playing depth is not the issue in South Africa. The issue is poor administration (which leads to poor coaching) and political intervention in sport (as is clearly illustrated by forcing the Kings to participate in Super Rugby when they are clearly not up to the task. They finished 2nd in the Currie Cup 'B' division last year.)

But don't you worry mate, there won't be another SA super team added to the comp next year. If you had been following it more closely you would have noted that SANZAR has an agreement with the broadcasters for a 15 team competition until 2015. If the Kings enter Super Rugby next year it will be at the expense of one of the existing SA teams.

But hey, we would be just as capable of bringing in another team full of foreign players just as the Rebels have done IF our depth was stretched.

The thread was started by a south African who was quoting a south African and i suspect for reasons that were more than just concern about OZ rugby. So I don't think it was too off topic?

 

[suckerforred]

Bruce, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any great insights into the solution for this, having been away from home for quite a few years, and lacking the exposure to current club rugby that some here have. My opinion is that whichever way it is approached, whether via an ARC type setup (which was just used as an example, by the way), or building on current club rugby competitions, it will be a struggle to develop a marketable "product" which will attract enough viewers to get a broadcaster interested.

No doubt it can be done - we get live coverage of the ITM cup in the middle east, so there is obviously a market. I guess that coverage initially requires one of the NZ broadcasters to take a punt that they can sell enough advertising and get some more income from on-selling the rights to other broadcasters to justify covering the games. I can see how the local NZ market would make it a reasonable proposition before considering anything else, but I think the nature of the Aus viewing market makes it very difficult to replicate here. Of course I would be very happy to be proven wrong!

Sandpit - ITM cup and Currie Cup is broadcast on Fox sports in Oz, so I would say the market is there.

I know it has been tried before in some form but... Would a starting point be a Club Championship. Winners of the top club level in each city/competition (Bris, Sydney, Melb, Adelaide, Perth, and any others), compete against each other for the Club Champion of Aust. It will take commitment from all clubs but would have advantages. There would be cross pollination between the cities, and those areas where it is regarded as 'poor' competion will improve with exposure to better clubs. Those clubs that are stand outs in their local comp may also get to play better oposition to test them.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

maybe if we were allowed to actually recruit more players from outside australia and not just get by on understrength minor squads as well as ditch a stupid one nation salary cap things wouldn't be so hard

 

[Bardon]

I agree with the assertions that to create dept it has to be from the bottom up. School link-ups, summer camps, tag rugby, junior teams/academy are all ways that the clubs can create dept for their future. Increasing the numbers of participants at underage level will eventually mean a bigger pool of players and more competition for super squad spots.

Having players drop down from a super squads to play at a lower level doesn't increase dept, it potentially blocks an up and coming player from gaining experience to allow them to make the step up to super rugby sooner.

You can either create dept organically which will take time. But as long as you stick with and expand programs aimed at creating feeder systems to super rugby you'll always have a good supply of young guys coming through. The short-term alternative is to recruit dept, especially from RL, which works well for backs but not so well for forwards.

I don't agree with the size of squads being capped. A salary cap or annual budget cap makes more sense. Put that together with restrictions on number of non-Aus qualified players and if one club can manage to have a squad of 35 players for the same money another is paying 30 players then more power to them.

One question I have on the foreign players, is the restriction done on an a straight X number of foreign players per club or is it by position. Here in Ireland from next season we'll be doing it so that there can only be one non-Irish qualified player per position across our four provincial teams.