• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

S15: Australia dont have depth

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
That's quite a short-sighted view Bruce. Should the ARU and Australian rugby fans admit defeat in their efforts to grow the game in the other cities and just accept that all of their players will always come from Sydney and Brisbane? Or should they be trying to develop rugby in the other cities with the prospect of then having a larger player base to select from? If so, should they start this ASAP or leave it for another 10 years?

How about trying to develop a stronger local rugby competition in Canberra to try and attract more of the local youngsters to play the game and give them an achievable target to aspire to?

I am very strongly in support of club rugby, Brisbok, and not just club rugby in Sydney. I applaud efforts to try to "develop a stronger local rugby competition in Canberra" or Melbourne or Adelaide or the Illawarra for that matter.

I just feel that the Jake White edict is a singularly stupid way to go about it. Australian club rugby has its own strong traditions and is what rugby in this country was built on. Drafting players into clubs they have no interest in being involved with and forcing them to break their ties with the clubs where they developed is the product of a mentality that thinks that those who pay you own you. Some of our members appear to be comfortable with this: I'm not.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Make it an U20 competition to make your U20 IRB WC selection stronger. ARU should make it stronger from the bottom structure which will produce more rugby union players. Invest in young union players and cut our league players.

That's true, but you see in the nrl with their under-20's that even at that age there are players still dominating not due to pure rugby ability but rather just size. It's a problem we have in Australian rugby, because at junior level the islander boys dominate but then don't go on with it and make a career at senior level once the other guys are fully grown. By making it U21 you have an extra year of development as well as being able to pick up rugby league players who are too old for their U20 system.

suckerforred:

Colts is U19 in qld and U20 everywhere else. This is because up until a couple of years ago in qld you would finish school at age 17 rather than 18. It will change to U20's in the next few years.
 

Brisbok

Cyril Towers (30)
I am very strongly in support of club rugby, Brisbok, and not just club rugby in Sydney. I applaud efforts to try to "develop a stronger local rugby competition in Canberra" or Melbourne or Adelaide or the Illawarra for that matter.

I just feel that the Jake White edict is a singularly stupid way to go about it. Australian club rugby has its own strong traditions and is what rugby in this country was built on. Drafting players into clubs they have no interest in being involved with and forcing them to break their ties with the clubs where they developed is the product of a mentality that thinks that those who pay you own you. Some of our members appear to be comfortable with this: I'm not.

Unfortunately that's the reality of the professional game Bruce.

How do you propose they grow the game in these other areas if all of the best players will always be moving on to play rugby in Sydney or Brisbane? How will they ever make club rugby stronger in these other areas? Yes it might be harsh to force the current players to break their ties with the clubs where they developed, but if it's not done now, when will it be done? The cycle will just continue - as it 'traditionally' has.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
How do you propose they grow the game in these other areas if all of the best players will always be moving on to play rugby in Sydney or Brisbane? How will they ever make club rugby stronger in these other areas? Yes it might be harsh to force the current players to break their ties with the clubs where they developed, but if it's not done now, when will it be done? The cycle will just continue - as it 'traditionally' has.

Over 40 years ago, Brisbok, I was foundation president of a Wollongong club that I still identify with. Consistently over the years I tried to persuade that Club’s officials that it would be in their interests to encourage some of their best young players to try their luck in the Sydney competition as a stepping stone to going on to higher levels. In the main my views have not been shared and one of the consequences of a purely local focus is that some outstanding Illawarra talent doesn’t get the opportunity to reach its full potential and consequently the competition standard is not as high as it could be.

At Sydney Uni I have long espoused the view that our rugby club – and indeed Uni clubs in other sports – is primarily in the business of development; assisting players to achieve their potential, whatever standard that may be. To the extent that this is achieved the most talented players tend to move on to higher levels. This should be viewed as a mark of success rather than something to try to prevent.

This year, with the Super 15 competition being virtually coextensive with the Shute Shield, the Sydney Premiership Clubs will be in a somewhat similar situation to what applies with the John I Dent competition. Players who have moved on to a higher standard competition, i.e., in the Sydney Club case to play professionally, will not be coming back to play for their clubs. My opinion, which may not be shared by others in my club, is that this can potentially strengthen Shute Shield competition, matching settled sides against one another for the whole season. But without the lure of being able to progress higher, club players would have no incentive to train 11 months of the year and four or five times per week.

The reality is that at the present time the Sydney and Brisbane Premiership competitions are the effective third tier of Australian rugby and they don’t do a bad job of developing players for the professional franchises.
 

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
The reality is that at the present time the Sydney and Brisbane Premiership competitions are the effective third tier of Australian rugby and they don’t do a bad job of developing players for the professional franchises.

True. But I am a big beliver that the game needs to be developed and expanded in areas outside of Sydney and Brisbane otherwise we are pushing poo up hill with a toothpick to expand the game in Australia. I see one way of doing this is getting the Super players to have contact and play with in places like Canberra, Melbourne abd Perth.

You are always going to get players moving to the stronger competitions because that is where they think that the better opportunities are. It is a little 'unfair' though that the Tahs and the Reds get first chop at players because they can send someone down the local games to have a look and sign them up. Now I am just baiting. I know that is not true.

As for tradition.... not sure if we should rely to heavily on that. Just because it has always been done like that doesn't make it right or the best policy. That is how entities stagnate. They don't change.
 

sonny crockett

Allen Oxlade (6)
Depth in Australian Rugby.

A subject that deserves a lot of attention.

Australian Rugby lives in the most competitive sporting environment in the world, compared to a per capita support/sponsorship base.

4 sports, essentially competing for the same dollar, maybe 5, given season lengths these days, winter and summer have blurred boundaries.
Some of the stuff that needs to be examined, structure, opportunity and development prospects.
With regards opportunity, and I define the world professional to mean being able to survive off the income:

• Rugby League, and a quick check of some of the rugby league websites shows 30 or more players in the “squad”. 16 teams at 30 players is almost 500 ‘professional’ contracts. The NYC guys might earn $2K to $20K, and there are many boot and jersey deals out there for kids across the land, but it gives them something to tie themselves to.

• A look at AFL sites indicates 40 in the top squad, 16 teams times 40 is 640 professional contracts, and backed by a very aggressive organization, with an enormous warchest.

• Rugby, 5 teams, 30 contracts, 150 players or professional contracts.

To have and develop depth, you then need a lot of people playing the game at a junior level. Rugby League and AFL have, although declining, pretty comprehensive club competitions, and school competitions. AFL has had no fear in pushing their code into the bigger private schools, and if I were developing rugby, my major concern would be the enjoyment factor that the kids actually derive from playing the game. Most love it, and can’t wait for the next week’s game.

Rugby on the other hand, continues to build from the top down, or try to, and subsequently rely on a few schools to supply the ‘depth’ required to fill the playing ranks of the super franchises, and all the levels below that that are required for the depth to be sustainable. Couple that to the prestige that rugby is seen to carry by some of these schools and the lengths they will go to to be ‘successful’ in what is a very small number of games, and you see a big concentration of the better talent at large, wealthy institutions that take their rugby more ‘seriously’ than others.

These schools have few scruples in raiding rugby leagues ranks, and rugby from all over the state. Often after the Under 15 rugby league national or state championships, some of the best league kids in the country will re align their education, and often funded by the rugby league club they are contracted to for the next x years.

Whatever they say, and whatever the schools say, these places that are more ‘serious’ about their rugby, want to win premierships, rugby premierships keeps their enrolments up, keeps the old school tie happy, and keeps them profitable, so part of their business model. The coaches understand they are there to win, and go out to obtain the best resources available to achieve that end, rugby league, rugby union, it doesn’t matter. Some even feel they are judged in the wider world by how many professional, there is that word again, contracts they deliver at the end of any given year, and professional in any code.

So then you can add the fact, that a lot of those kids, drop out of rugby, those figures are quoted somewhere, and judging by the age of the people playing premier rugby around the place, more and more drop out or play elsewhere, which is another segment on opportunity. Kids from a league background, too more often than not return to league, having traded their skill and ability for a couple of year’s of education.

Rugby gives little credence to junior club competitions, where some real depth and playing numbers could be built. However, to develop a club competition requires or will require in some places, and attitude change, with that over riding attitude in many places being that if you want to play rugby, you need to be at this school or that school. There has been a lot of lip service given to this subject but little physical action.

You then have the school scouts picking the eyes out of the competition, and staff and employees from head office structures actually directing kids to various schools in the capital cities for ‘scholarships’. The belief at head office level is that it is better to get these kids to a central capital city location and they will be better off being developed there, in close location to the said head office.

There is not any ‘head office’ belief systems that wish to develop competition systems outside the established school and capital city regimes. Those big schools will also work against any club competition in the background, while purporting to support club development on the surface.
The point of all of that then is that in my opinion, there is not enough kids playing footy, leading to adults playing footy, developing a broad and rich base of playing resources.

You can compare the Australian Rugby system to League and AFL, or the system of operation in New Zealand, as a close and successful rugby nation. I have never been sure why Australia believes that the wheel can be re invented on how to have a strong system, when League, AFL and New Zealand do things pretty well, and pretty differently.

I have been around junior league and junior union systems over the last 20 years, and a couple of simple observations would be the sheer professionalism of the league guys, and in most cases, the inability of the union guys to manage to end up doing what they said they were going to do, with regards to things like attributes testing, even uniform delivery.

Union always was a long way behind in the professionalism stakes with regard to coaching and coach development, talent ID with few clear criteria in place or looked upon with regards to key areas of competence. I have walked away from a few selection meetings for want of better words, that have had my head spinning with regards to who was put up and why, and who got a spot and why. There is still quite a bit of mateship involved in who gets some of the positions at a reasonable level

Things like this, when league and union are so easily comparable for example, encourage folks to stay with league, or move to league, couple it to payments of even $100 per match in the bush and folks are helped with university book payments and the like.

I have found the coaching, talent ID and retention of league and union to be streets apart in levels of knowledge, and professionalism. AFL incredible in it’s promotion of the sport, with a single mindedness that has made inroads.

Then we can go back to opportunity, another opportunity. Call it top end opportunity or whatever you like. There are big opportunities to play rugby, and to some extent league, overseas, but in this ever changing fast paced world, those opportunities are being taken up seemingly at an increasing pace by seemingly young players, leaving younger and younger players at a super footy level in Australia, and New Zealand.

So in my opinion, the pool is being diluted at both ends, on one end a combination of systemic issues relating to development, and a drop out rate or code movement (switching) rate that is probably higher than in another era, and at the other end, by significant opportunities outside the country, that give rise to a good income, travel, and a lot of things that are very attractive to young people.

Overseas opportunities do not only drain players, but it can’t be questioned that the best coaches in the country head overseas to ply their trade.

While I have seen things in this thread like where fringe super players should play in relation to depth, a strong system would be developing players that move into those ranks from below, not above.

Club rugby for mine is where the focus needs to be, but it is a pretty big, steep hill to climb.
Just a few of my opinions on the matter, have given it much thought over the years. Not really concerned who does and doesn’t agree with it.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Great points Sonny, I love to read real sensible responses to these threads. I agree so much that one of big problems is that rugby here seems to be built from top down!
 

sonny crockett

Allen Oxlade (6)
Great points Sonny, I love to read real sensible responses to these threads. I agree so much that one of big problems is that rugby here seems to be built from top down!
Mate, thanks for that, I could no doubt go on and on, but would bore most. I have stopped climbing the hill now as it rates clsoe to impossible and I have better things to do with my time. I guess one thing I shuold have added, if there was real depth there, natural depth, not artificial depth, the injuries being suffered now and through the season would be of no concern, there would be plenty of backups. I remember when I met with some of the Broncos officials years ago, and they indicated to me that they looked at 30 or 40 kids every year for every position in their programme.
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
For all the piss and wind being spouted, has Australian rugby, at any point in time, ever... been stronger? Not talking about just results wise, but from an industry point of view. Not saying it can't be improved, but given you have a couple of other codes which are engrained in a fair whack of your country mens blood, I'd say you need to accept what you have and be happy with it.

5 professional teams of which one is champion, 3N champion, more than a handful of world class players - hardly shabby. Pre WC, there was more than a fair share of neutrals picking you boys to take it as well. On another day, you might well have.

I personally think that with al the competition, the structure you have in place is about as good as you are going to get.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Depth in Australian Rugby.
A subject that deserves a lot of attention.
Australian Rugby lives in the most competitive sporting environment in the world, compared to a per capita support/sponsorship base.
4 sports, essentially competing for the same dollar, maybe 5, given season lengths these days, winter and summer have blurred boundaries.

• Rugby League, and a quick check of some of the rugby league websites shows 30 or more players in the “squad”. 16 teams at 30 players is almost 500 ‘professional’ contracts. The NYC guys might earn $2K to $20K, and there are many boot and jersey deals out there for kids across the land, but it gives them something to tie themselves to.
• A look at AFL sites indicates 40 in the top squad, 16 teams times 40 is 640 professional contracts, and backed by a very aggressive organization, with an enormous warchest.
• Rugby, 5 teams, 30 contracts, 150 players or professional contracts.
........
I have been around junior league and junior union systems over the last 20 years, and a couple of simple observations would be the sheer professionalism of the league guys, and in most cases, the inability of the union guys to manage to end up doing what they said they were going to do, with regards to things like attributes testing, even uniform delivery. Union always was a long way behind in the professionalism stakes with regard to coaching and coach development, talent ID with few clear criteria in place or looked upon with regards to key areas of competence. I have walked away from a few selection meetings for want of better words, that have had my head spinning with regards to who was put up and why, and who got a spot and why. There is still quite a bit of mateship involved in who gets some of the positions at a reasonable level
.......
Overseas opportunities do not only drain players, but it can’t be questioned that the best coaches in the country head overseas to ply their trade.
While I have seen things in this thread like where fringe super players should play in relation to depth, a strong system would be developing players that move into those ranks from below, not above.
Club rugby for mine is where the focus needs to be, but it is a pretty big, steep hill to climb.
Just a few of my opinions on the matter, have given it much thought over the years. Not really concerned who does and doesn’t agree with it.


Great stuff Sonny - just not sure I agree on the International dimension being a drain. In the long term I think it probably has more of a "pull through" effect and may even keep players like Cooper, Beale etc in Rugby as they eye their retirement prize.

Same with coaches. Link has come back stronger, Foley and Graham also got their chance O/S. There's a developing pool of other Aussies like Cheika and others coming through as well. Where would they have got top flight exposure in Aus in the meantime?

Simple fact is we don't have the commercial pull for a third tier, yet. Fark, isn't the ITM a money loser as well? And we have no bottomless pit to fund it.

So, I probably agree with MR that JO'Ns done about as well as he could
  1. swindling another Super team out of SANZAR to give more Aussie talent an airing and
  2. wringing a longer Super season so that at least there's some Rugby on TV to compete with the inferior codes, despite it fucking the 3rd tier comps in SA and NZ
These - and a decent SUPER product which he also keeps pumping for - provide the pull-through. As you point out though, we need the right stuff at the bottom to provide the push. This is always going to be tough though when our competitor codes have been pro for so long, and with 8 times as many people involved professionally in the game.
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)
I could no doubt go on and on, but would bore most.
For what its worth I'm very interested in your thoughts on this. Please continue to go on if you have time... those that don't want to read it don't have to.

I personally think that with al the competition, the structure you have in place is about as good as you are going to get.
I'm not so pessimistic :) Perhaps its sheer boody mindedness but I have more hope for the game here. We've only had 17 years of professionalism, the other codes have viewed their sport as a business for decades. We are yet to have a generation running the game that isn't linked to the amateur era. We are certainly behind the other codes, but the game is good to watch and play, it's advantage is that it has decent global appeal. Many here are dismissive of 7s, but in the future I believe it will provide the revenue stream that will attract high caliber administrators to the game who will force structural change for the better. If handled correctly 7s will be good for 15s.
 

Sandpit Fan

Nev Cottrell (35)
My feeling is that MR has summarised things fairly well, looking at it as a fairly impartial observer.

This line:
I personally think that with all the competition, the structure you have in place is about as good as you are going to get.
is the crux of the matter in my opinion.

While we would all love to see an ARC style lower level competition in place, let's face reality, the money will never be there. The 2003 RWC gave the ARU a war chest, which is now empty, and it's not going to get filled up in any grand fashion until there's another RWC in Australia to generate that sort of revenue. TV rights and so on are never going to do much more than cover running costs, particularly when provinces have to be bailed out every few years.

Love him or hate him, JON has done alright with the hand he was dealt.
 

Bruce Ross

Ken Catchpole (46)
For all the piss and wind being spouted, has Australian rugby, at any point in time, ever... been stronger?

Yes, and in particular when we were competitive with the All Blacks on a regular basis.

Not talking about just results wise, but from an industry point of view.

Our national body is haemorrhaging; our franchises are haemorrhaging; and our Premiership clubs in Sydney and presumably Brisbane are haemorrhaging. So "from an industry point of view" at almost "any [other] point of time" we were "stronger".

Not saying it can't be improved, but given you have a couple of other codes which are engrained in a fair whack of your country mens blood, I'd say you need to accept what you have and be happy with it.

No, we don't "need to accept" it and those of us with eyes to see certainly aren't "happy with it".

Pre WC, there was more than a fair share of neutrals picking you boys to take it as well.

On any racetrack you'll find a fair proportion of punters who can't read a form guide.

On another day, you might well have.

With another preparation, we "might well have".

I personally think that with al the competition, the structure you have in place is about as good as you are going to get.

You might wish for that, Major, but I like to think we'll eventually start to get it right. If we accepted that the present structure "is about as good as [we] are going to get" we might well have rugby true believers topping themselves.

While we would all love to see an ARC style lower level competition in place ...

Certainly not all of us, Sandpit. Some of us realise that the last thing Australian rugby needs is the creation of synthetic entities where all the players have to be paid; large numbers of them have to be relocated to other states; and there is no chance of securing television coverage.

The 2003 RWC gave the ARU a war chest, which is now empty, and it's not going to get filled up in any grand fashion until there's another RWC in Australia to generate that sort of revenue.

Due to the greed of the IRB, hosting another RWC is now a guaranteed way to dissipate "a war chest" not gain it.

JON has done alright with the hand he was dealt.

Not really this time around, but I don't think that the bucket should be poured on just John:

Clowns to the left of him,
Jokers to the right, here he is,
Stuck in the middle of it all,​
 

emuarse

Chilla Wilson (44)
True. But I am a big beliver that the game needs to be developed and expanded in areas outside of Sydney and Brisbane otherwise we are pushing poo up hill with a toothpick to expand the game in Australia. I see one way of doing this is getting the Super players to have contact and play with in places like Canberra, Melbourne abd Perth.

You are always going to get players moving to the stronger competitions because that is where they think that the better opportunities are.

For my 2 cents worth, I do believe that a revised form of the ANC competition has merit. But their season should be shorter, and earlier in the season that they can then return to their club competitions for the business part of the year.
I think a competition with 6 teams - Adelaide, Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne, Perth, & Sydney. Each team squad with 25 players (shorter season & to keep costs down), with the first 8 selected been local players, followed by a ballot system for the remaining players e.g. say Perth has the 3rd selection in first round of 17 rounds, then 2nd selection, 1st, & then 6th. 5th etc.
This will provide for a fair & competitive comp., with 5 games, then 1st Vs 4th & 2nd V,s 3rd in semis, then the winner of each in the final.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
//Conundrum\realist rant mode.//

NSW (including ACT - it is just another country town) & Qld are the prime rugby areas in Aus, to the rest rugby is a curiosity

In the short term, bringing in the best of the balance into those two comps is the most pragmatic\cost effective approach.

The ARU simply doesn't have the cash to lose bucket loads on another ARC, and the ARC was 95% players from the Sydney & QLD comps anyway.

Oh, and we have more depth now than we ever have

//rant finished//
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
Yes, and in particular when we were competitive with the All Blacks on a regular basis.

Our national body is haemorrhaging; our franchises are haemorrhaging; and our Premiership clubs in Sydney and presumably Brisbane are haemorrhaging. So "from an industry point of view" at almost "any [other] point of time" we were "stronger".

No, we don't "need to accept" it and those of us with eyes to see certainly aren't "happy with it".

On any racetrack you'll find a fair proportion of punters who can't read a form guide.

With another preparation, we "might well have".

You might wish for that, Major, but I like to think we'll eventually start to get it right. If we accepted that the present structure "is about as good as [we] are going to get" we might well have rugby true believers topping themselves.

I might wish for that? Bruce, I couldn't give a shit either way - I just have an opinion I thought I would share.

I can't discuss with somebody who is just so negative. Best you top your glass of water mate, it's clearly half empty.
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
Good to hear. I hope that the effort is kept up, and the ARU don't rest on their laurals. We have to accept that the increase in participation will be significantly due to the performance of the Reds last year. Now the momentum is there we need to have strategies to keep these people in the game and not drop out in the next couple of years.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
The problem with these figures is how they determine participation. If it is players who sign up at clubs or play for their school then that's good but if it just kids who participate in some activity on one day then it really doesn't represent a real picture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top