S15: Australia dont have depth

[kiap]

Agree with the need for creating depth from the bottom up.

One question I have on the foreign players, is the restriction done on an a straight X number of foreign players per club or is it by position. Here in Ireland from next season we'll be doing it so that there can only be one non-Irish qualified player per position across our four provincial teams.

A limit of one marquee player (non-eligible for Australia) for super rugby teams. There is also one development position per team for a player on the path to becoming eligible (i.e. not capped for foreign test or 'A' sides).

 

[suckerforred]

maybe if we were allowed to actually recruit more players from outside australia and not just get by on understrength minor squads as well as ditch a stupid one nation salary cap things wouldn't be so hard

I actually don't see being able to recruit more os players would help with depth. We would really want the depth to come from Aust players. I do have an issue with Aust passport holders / citizins not being able to return to play in aust because of the restrictions. But there are arguements for both sides so I am not ssure I am convinced either way.

The fact that we have a salary cap and the conferences that we compete against don't, I also see as an issue. However.... I can see some of the reasoning behind having the salary cap - trying to maintain the viability of the franchises for one. In this matter I can agree with Bardon - a salary cap is more sensible than a restriction on the number of players in the squad. As he said - if one team can get 35 players for their money and oposed to the 30 of another team more power to them.

I think that we need to increase the number of players in the club ranks and with this will come the increase in depth. I have said before that I am sure there are some very good players that we have lost to other codes purely because the oportunities are not there for them to play, or even try RU. How do we change that?

 

[mudskipper]

While this blog is clearly a wind up by a yarpie... May I point out that the depth was enough to do better thN the Boks at the RWC and win the super 15 championship last year... Just if the thought eluded him...
Clearly the massive Saffa depth drowns many a talented player...

 

[Bowside]

While this blog is clearly a wind up by a yarpie... May I point out that the depth was enough to do better thN the Boks at the RWC and win the super 15 championship last year... Just if the thought eluded him...
Clearly the massive Saffa depth drowns many a talented player...

It would be foolish to suggest the saffas dont have better depth than us. South Africa's problems in rugby are dude to poor administration and coaching.

They have the talent but can't make the most of it, we have talent at the top but the standard falls away quickly.

 

[mudskipper]

It would be foolish to suggest the saffas dont have better depth than us. South Africa's problems in rugby are dude to poor administration and coaching.

They have the talent but can't make the most of it, we have talent at the top but the standard falls away quickly.

Results are what matters... we don't need Safa cheap shots and cynicism here, bang'n about OZ teams... SA teams are in a world of trouble... they just need to get results or go...

 

[Godfrey]

I don't think we need to automatically reject any criticism of things dear to us, some of it might be valid. It doesn't matter who holds the opinion, and in this case it's a pretty true one.

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Results are what matters... we don't need Safa cheap shots and cynicism here, bang'n about OZ teams... SA teams are in a world of trouble... they just need to get results or go...

Quite a difference between cynicism and a realistic view of the facts. It's a fact that Australian rugby lacks depth, just as it's a fact that we manage to punch above our weight with what we do have, which is actually what Jake White is saying. Not sure how you equate that view with a wind-up or a cheap shot when it's actually a complement?

Depth and ability are not always connected - England and South Africa provide two very good examples where massive depth doesn't translate into consistent winning teams.

 

[Bardon]

Sometimes it takes an outsider to stand up and get the discussion rolling on something that although obvious to everyone still isn't being adressed sufficiently.

 

[Bowside]

Sometimes it takes an outsider to stand up and get the discussion rolling on something that although obvious to everyone still isn't being adressed sufficiently.

Bit like the brumbies player power culture.

 

[mudskipper]

Bit like the brumbies player power culture.

No they just employ players who can think...

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Quite a difference between cynicism and a realistic view of the facts. It's a fact that Australian rugby lacks depth, just as it's a fact that we manage to punch above our weight with what we do have, which is actually what Jake White is saying. Not sure how you equate that view with a wind-up or a cheap shot when it's actually a complement?

Depth and ability are not always connected - England and South Africa provide two very good examples where massive depth doesn't translate into consistent winning teams.

The 2 bolded parts contradict each other here. I am surprised at this punch above your weight view... 1 x 3N & 1x S15 in the last 8 years is not exactly fantastic results.

Seems alot of world always look at at Aussie with envy of it's players (I am one of these) but when number of trophies is laid bare, it's not compelling reading. I personally think you should have done much better.

 

[daz]

Results are what matters... we don't need Safa cheap shots and cynicism here, bang'n about OZ teams... SA teams are in a world of trouble... they just need to get results or go...

I'm with you, mudskipper. How many RWC trophies do those useless Saffa bastards have compared to ours? What? The same, you say? Well, yes, ok, but we clearly did it with more style and a more talented bench.

As for S15 titles, well, we all know that Australia leads the way in that particular race. I have even spent 30 seconds of my time to painstakingly cut and paste this from Google. I bring you this list from 1996-2011, which clearly shows that the Kiwi's and the Saffa's are struggling badly. After all, didn't you say results matter?

Country Winning teams Total wins
New Zealand Crusaders/Blues 10
South Africa Bulls 3
Australia Brumbies/Reds 3

And you are right, we don't need cheap shots about Oz teams; we do a pretty good job of that ourselves. But I'll take a cheap shot from any of our SA and Kiwi mates before I'll take yours.


Goodnight nurse!

 

[Brisbok]

No they just employ players who can think...

Wow...."employing players who can think" has worked out really well for the Brumbies in the last 8 years! I'm not sure why it's taking so long for the other teams to catch onto this successful policy!

 

[mudskipper]

I'm with you, mudskipper. How many RWC trophies do those useless Saffa bastards have compared to ours? What? The same, you say? Well, yes, ok, but we clearly did it with more style and a more talented bench.

As for S15 titles, well, we all know that Australia leads the way in that particular race. I have even spent 30 seconds of my time to painstakingly cut and paste this from Google. I bring you this list from 1996-2011, which clearly shows that the Kiwi's and the Saffa's are struggling badly. After all, didn't you say results matter?

Country Winning teams Total wins
New Zealand Crusaders/Blues 10
South Africa Bulls 3
Australia Brumbies/Reds 3

And you are right, we don't need cheap shots about Oz teams; we do a pretty good job of that ourselves. But I'll take a cheap shot from any of our SA and Kiwi mates before I'll take yours.


Goodnight nurse!

I didn't mention the Kiwis... only our friends from the republic...

 

[mudskipper]

Wow...."employing players who can think" has worked out really well for the Brumbies in the last 8 years! I'm not sure why it's taking to so long for the other teams to catch onto this successful policy!

It helps when you have so called "player power" ...

 

[mudskipper]

You know thinking about it, the refs are crack'n down, the Kiwis and yarpies could be in a world of trouble, as this year as you cant get away with "Rolling on the ground while playing the ball"...

 

[Brisbok]

You know thinking about it, the refs are crack'n down, the Kiwis and yarpies could be in a world of trouble, as this year as you cant get away with "Rolling on the ground while playing the ball"...

Definitely. I have read a couple of articles in the kiwi and South African media that suggest the NZ and SA teams may forfeit their games against Australian opposition this season because they realise they will have absolutely no chance of winning in light of the fact that refs are 'crack'n down' this year.

 

[Brisbok]

...hopefully Jake White hasn't been coaching the Brumbies this well known South African and Kiwi tactic otherwise they may also be penalised off the park this year!

 

[daz]

I didn't mention the Kiwis... only our friends from the republic...

Ok, so that narrows things a bit. Let's see:

RWC Titles = 2 each.
Super Rugby Titles = 3 each.

So how are SA teams in a "world of trouble" compared to Oz teams?

The table below adds some background as well. Seems to show me that as a regional conference, SA and Oz are pretty evenly matched.

SportsBet odds for the 2012 Super 15 Rugby Grand Final Winner.

(Oz teams in Bold, SA teams in italics and underlined.)

Crusaders 4.00
Reds 7.00
Stormers 8.00
Sharks 11.00
Blues 7.00
Bulls 15.00
Waratahs 8.00
Hurricanes 34.00
Chiefs 15.00
Brumbies 34.00
Lions 51.00
Highlanders 17.00
Cheetahs 51.00
Western Force 41.00
Rebels 41.00

 

[Sandpit Fan]

The 2 bolded parts contradict each other here. I am surprised at this punch above your weight view... 1 x 3N & 1x S15 in the last 8 years is not exactly fantastic results.

Seems alot of world always look at at Aussie with envy of it's players (I am one of these) but when number of trophies is laid bare, it's not compelling reading. I personally think you should have done much better.

Love how you made it an 8 year cutoff MR Brilliant use of statistics, don't have to put in those pesky Bledisloe Cup wins.

Yes, we should have done better, but my point was more related to a country like England, which has huge numbers of players in the system, 2000 member clubs of the RFU, a strong club competition etc, but have poor results against Aus, NZ, SA etc. If depth was the only requirement for getting good results, they would be sitting #1 on the IRB rankings.

 

[Brisbok]

Ok, so that narrows things a bit. Let's see:

RWC Titles = 2 each.
Super Rugby Titles = 3 each.

So how are SA teams in a "world of trouble" compared to Oz teams?

The table below adds some background as well. Seems to show me that as a regional conference, SA and Oz are pretty evenly matched.

SportsBet odds for the 2012 Super 15 Rugby Grand Final Winner.

(Oz teams in Bold, SA teams in italics and underlined.)

Crusaders 4.00
Reds 7.00
Stormers 8.00
Sharks 11.00
Blues 7.00
Bulls 15.00
Waratahs 8.00
Hurricanes 34.00
Chiefs 15.00
Brumbies 34.00
Lions 51.00
Highlanders 17.00
Cheetahs 51.00
Western Force 41.00
Rebels 41.00

Clearly these odds are taken from an Australian betting website ranking the Lions and Cheetahs well below the Rebels, Force, Brumbies, Hurricanes etc. I'm sure the odds would be significantly different if taken from a South African or even a kiwi betting website.

With respect to RWC wins - SA are 2 wins from 5 attempts (40%), Aus are 2 wins from 7 attempts (29%).

Yes I realise you are trying to make a point to Mudskipper, but I thought I would add further evidence to that.