PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
Which SA teams struggled in super rugby?
S15: Australia dont have depth
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Waylon
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which haven't. Even the Bulls were a guaranteed 5 points early in super rugby. I remember the Tahs putting 50 on them at Loftus
Forcefield
Ken Catchpole (46)
The Cheetahs won their first game outside the Republic since their re-entry last season after 5 years. Last season Lions won their first game in 2 years breaking a 17 game losing streak. It might be tougher this year but go back two or three years and it would be far and away the easiest. As for the 'easiness' of the Aus conference, the Rebels may have been shithouse in 2011 but of course they would have been- they are a brand new team with no existing meaningful rugby infrastructure to back them up. A couple of our teams might also be shit due to Melbourne challenging our depth but it won't be too long before the Cheetahs and Lions sink back to the bottom. That's if they don't get replaced by the Kings.
The Kings would have been so much more shit than the Rebels were.
The Kings would have been so much more shit than the Rebels were.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
You can copy the Reds effort with the Brutes. I like your way of just generalising and just plain trolling.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
I'd like to see the Kings get a change. All the SA teams can kick start their season with a garantued 5 pointer like Aussie teams had last year and for the record, the conferense shite only started last year.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
I'm completely new to Super Rugby in terms of following it closely. Have watched a lot of it on Sky sports over here as I just love my rugby. But that was always as a stand alone thing and never with an eye on the overall picture. So forgive me if I'm being ignorant and also please know I'm not trying to pick a fight.
Looking at purely the conference results and the stats from those the Reds were actually worse off by playing in the Oz conference and here's what they say.
The Reds had a 75% win rate against Oz teams. This is the same as against NZ teams (75%) and worse than against SA teams 100%. That's a 75% win rate against Oz teams versus an 87.5% win ratio against non-Oz teams. So they had a higher conference win ratio against non Oz teams.
They scored on average 25.125 points per game and conceded 19.25 against Oz teams. Compared to 32 for and 16.5 against SA teams and 24.75 for and 21.5 against versus NZ teams. That's 25.125 for and 19.25 against versus Oz teams and 28.375 for and 19 against versus non-Oz teams. So they had a higher average points for and lower average points against versus non-Oz teams.
In terms of losing bonus points coughed up. Most of their Oz wins (bar the rebels were pretty close). They gave 4 losing bonus points to their oponents when they were Oz teams. That's a losing bonus point in 67% of their wins v Oz teams. They gave one losing bonus point in their 4 wins against SA teams so that's 25%. They gave 2 losing bonus points in their 3 wins v NZ teams so that 67%. That's 67% losing bonus points coughed up against Oz teams versus 43% against non-Oz teams. In terms of losing bonus points gained they got 0/2 against Oz teams, N/A v SA and 1/1 v NZ teams. So on losing bonus points they had a better record against non-Oz teams compared to Oz teams.
All of that point to the 8 games against Oz teams being more difficult for the REDS compared to their 8 games against non-Oz teams.
Does that prove or disprove the dept in Oz rugby? Not one bit. It just shows that for local rivals teams tend to raise their game thus making playing Oz teams tougher for the Reds.
Does the Reds winning last years S15 prove or disprove the dept in Oz rugby? Not one bit. It's possible to have successful teams and still not have a huge amount of dept. As a Leinster fan I should know and any Munster fan will tell you the same. Ireland has dominated the Pro12 and Heineken Cup over recent years. We have less dept than Wales, a hell of a lot less dept than England or France and more dept than Scotland or Italy.
Our dept or lack of it doesn't affect the success of our provinces/franchises as a whole. It just means that in the overall competition there's a wider gap between our best and worst performers as seen by the overall S15 standings and also by the HC pool performances of Munster/Leinster versus Connacht.
Purely on dept I'd rank the S15 nations NZ->SA->OZ. But dept alone doesn't win trophies.
PaarlBok
Rod McCall (65)
The S15 format became a fart since it change to the conferense format.
No team play the same opposition , and the different home and away fixtures differs from year to year but the log rankings decide the top 6 and the home and away teams in the business end. The length of the competition these days makes depth in the squads all important/
No team play the same opposition , and the different home and away fixtures differs from year to year but the log rankings decide the top 6 and the home and away teams in the business end. The length of the competition these days makes depth in the squads all important/
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
True but my point is dept in one squad does not equal dept in Australia. It just points to a cencentration of talent in 1 or 2 Franchises rather than being spread among 4-5 in SA & NZ. The performance of one or two teams are never a good indicator of overall dept.
I could be wrong, but I think most of the Oz supporters here on the boards would agree that there is a problem with dept overall in Oz S15 teams. Does that automatically rule all Oz franchises out of contention? No. But it does mean that some of them will struggle depending on who's been lucky to get the talent swell in their squads and who's been unlucky.
The lack of dept is a stumbling block to sustained success over many years, similar to how the coaching and overall structure in SA is a stumbling block to SA S15 teams. But it only takes 1 team with dept in their squad, decent coaches to have a good season with a little bit of luck thrown in to be S15 champions.
A lack of dept or poor structure/coaches simply means there are less candidates from a country to be S15 champions. Would an Oz fan tell you that all 5 Oz franchises have a shot at winning this years S15, probably not. But they would tell you that there's a good chance of an Oz team winning it.
The advantage that NZ have is that they have dept and also all their ducks in a row in terms of structure and coaches. This gives them an advantage in terms of sustained success over many years rather than a blanket monopoly.
I could be wrong, but I think most of the Oz supporters here on the boards would agree that there is a problem with dept overall in Oz S15 teams. Does that automatically rule all Oz franchises out of contention? No. But it does mean that some of them will struggle depending on who's been lucky to get the talent swell in their squads and who's been unlucky.
The lack of dept is a stumbling block to sustained success over many years, similar to how the coaching and overall structure in SA is a stumbling block to SA S15 teams. But it only takes 1 team with dept in their squad, decent coaches to have a good season with a little bit of luck thrown in to be S15 champions.
A lack of dept or poor structure/coaches simply means there are less candidates from a country to be S15 champions. Would an Oz fan tell you that all 5 Oz franchises have a shot at winning this years S15, probably not. But they would tell you that there's a good chance of an Oz team winning it.
The advantage that NZ have is that they have dept and also all their ducks in a row in terms of structure and coaches. This gives them an advantage in terms of sustained success over many years rather than a blanket monopoly.
Bardon
Peter Fenwicke (45)
That I would agree with. Either play all teams or do pools like the HEC, if you're going to play 13/15 teams then go the whole hog and play all 15. That is one place where an advantage can be gained as getting the weakest team from one of the other conference and avoiding the strongest from another could be an 8-10 point difference in the overall standings. Someone lucky enough to do that twice could get a 16-20 swing. Those are extremes but it definitely has an effect on the final standings. There was just 6 points between 2nd and 6th in last years standings.
Did you miss the last sentence of my post you quoted? And the fact that historically, two of the republic teams have been rubbish in Super Rugby, not Currie Cup, but Super Rugby?
Godfrey
Phil Hardcastle (33)
The Reds can't help who else was in the conference last year. If only there was some way to judge whether they truly deserved the success - like beating the top South African side at home and beating the top 2 NZ sides twice each. I don't understand Paarl why you can use the "no easy SA derbies" despite the Cheetahs and lions being paddled off and on when the Aus derbies were more difficult for the Reds than the table would suggest. Both games against the Force were won in the last moments, one against the Brumbies was only won due to goal kicking and the other they were trounced. All of the sides in the bottom half of the ladder can beat any side in the top half o their day - Force v Saders being a good example.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
OK. The issue that we started discussing here was the depth in Oz rugby. Weather or not the Reds had an easy run to the Super Rugby title last year is a redundant question. They are in the history books as winning the comp and that is that. We have to face the fact that all of the Oz Super Rugby side are only a few injuries away from the toilet. I think that the Tahs showed that towards the end of last season, and bless their little cotton socks I think they might be going to be a shining example this season as well. The thing with NZ and SA teams is that they have sufficient 'depth' to cover for those injuries so the performance of the team (judged against their prior performances) is generally not significantly effected. The fact that we had two teams make the top 6 and the other 3 languish and the bottom of the tabel also shows, IMO, that there is not enough depth in Oz rugby. We don't have the talent to cover 5 teams. In no way am I argueing that we should not have the 5 sides, I am just highlighting an example that proves we don't have the depth.
Yes the fact that the competition structure is such that we do not play each other team in the season is odd, but changing this will mean an extension of the season. If this were to happen then we would end up with the domestic season overlapping the international season. Now this would really show the depth of the squads wouldn't it. Would it be fair that the departure of the international players would penalise the Aust sides out of winning the Super Rugby comp, as they just wouldn't be competitive without them? The Reds would have lost 12 (?) players from their roster if we were still playing Super Rugby when the RWC went into camp. That only leaves 23 players, not accounting for injuries, and we had a few of them hence one of players in the semi coming in from the club comp.
How do we change this? It is not going to happen over night but itwill can happen. We just need the comitment of all levels of the rugby community, especially the ARU. Now evidence is telling us that perhaps this is not going to happen. But I am a pessimist.
Can I just be a pedant - dept (short for department) is who controls the shite, depth is the amount you are in.
Yes the fact that the competition structure is such that we do not play each other team in the season is odd, but changing this will mean an extension of the season. If this were to happen then we would end up with the domestic season overlapping the international season. Now this would really show the depth of the squads wouldn't it. Would it be fair that the departure of the international players would penalise the Aust sides out of winning the Super Rugby comp, as they just wouldn't be competitive without them? The Reds would have lost 12 (?) players from their roster if we were still playing Super Rugby when the RWC went into camp. That only leaves 23 players, not accounting for injuries, and we had a few of them hence one of players in the semi coming in from the club comp.
How do we change this? It is not going to happen over night but it
Can I just be a pedant - dept (short for department) is who controls the shite, depth is the amount you are in.
MajorlyRagerly
Trevor Allan (34)
Regardless of all the posts above, what can't be argued is that a lot of people are looking at the Force, Rebels & Brumbies, Lions, Cheetahs, & Hurricanes as bunny teams this year. Thus 1 from NZ, 2 from SA and 3 from Aus. That is where the perception of stronger/weaker conference is coming from.
So lets let those teams do the talking on the pitch. Only at the end of the S15 round robin will we know where we all stand. All 6 of those teams have some gamebreakers (for goodness sakes players such as Brussow, Pocock, Jane, Juan Smith, Conrad Smith play in these teams!).
Fuck it's good to have some rugby to talk about!
So lets let those teams do the talking on the pitch. Only at the end of the S15 round robin will we know where we all stand. All 6 of those teams have some gamebreakers (for goodness sakes players such as Brussow, Pocock, Jane, Juan Smith, Conrad Smith play in these teams!).
Fuck it's good to have some rugby to talk about!
mudskipper
Colin Windon (37)
How many Boks moved on to Europe or Japan post RWC? or retired...Will there be a lot of SA newbies this season... or will we see the same old crew...
Brisbok
Cyril Towers (30)
That is the question on every rugby fan in SA's mind. I think we will see a lot of younger exciting players in the S15 this year and HOPEFULLY that will translate to a new look Bok team, playing a more modern style of rugby. There is enough talent within South Africa to build a successful team without selecting those players playing in either Europe or Japan.
Paddysboy
Stan Wickham (3)
Pining for the Super XV a couple of months ago I had a dig around. Quite a few of these guys played in the Saffa Provinces last season:
Agen/ Gert Muller Biarritz/Eugene van Staden Brive/Retief Uys Clermont/Daniel Kotze, Riaan Swanepoel, Brent Russell Montpellier/Rassie Van Vuuren, Drickus Hancke Perpignan/Rudi Coetzee, Gavin Hume Castres/Rory Kockott* Stade Francais/Gerhard Mostert, Anton van Zyl
Toulon/Bakkies Botha, André Pretorius Toulous/Gary Botha, Gurthrö Steenkamp Lyon/Coenraad Basson, Ricky Januarie Racing Metro/François van der Merwe, François Steyn Benetton/Benjamin Vermaak, Willem de Waal Cardiff Blues/Andries Pretorius* Connacht/Ethienne Reynecke Leinster/Richardt Strauss, Heinke van der Merwe, Steven Sykes Munster/BJ Botha, Wian du Preez Newport Gwent/Tonderai Chavhanga Bath/Francois Louw Ulster/Johann Muller, Ruan Pienaar, Stefan Terblanche Saracens/Schalk Brits, John Smit, Derick Hougaard Newcastle/Adriaan Fondse, Corne Uys Aironi/Frans Viljoen, Naas Olivier Mont-de-Marsan/Berend Botha Suntory Sungoliath Danie Rossouw, Fourie du Preez Retired: Victor Matfield, Derick Kuun
*May have returned to RSA.
mudskipper
Colin Windon (37)
So a massive amount of Saffa newbies... it will test their depth...
I guess I have to ask "did any stay?" ...
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
Isn't the bloke who has to fill Victors shoes got a job ahead of him.
mudskipper
Colin Windon (37)
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