S15: Australia dont have depth

[spooony]

He did utilize the Bulls very well and used their strengths to over power the teams that got in their way. But he left when some of his old guard retired and new blood came in. So his Bulls team and its players might be new to him as well

 

[PaarlBok]

Brutes just completed the Aussie grand slam in 2012, Stormers one match away from it, Sharks & Cheetahs drop one, only the Lions who struggled.

 

[No4918]

A good effort but they weren't that good last night. Rebels would have beaten them if they'd turned up like that last week.

 

[Brisbok]

A good effort but they weren't that good last night. Rebels would have beaten them if they'd turned up like that last week.

Funny that, the Rebels had their opportunity last week and DIDN'T win. Say what you like about the performance, ANY win on tour is a good win. The Bulls leave with 2 wins from 2 in Aus, as did the Stormers. How many wins have the Aus teams notched up in South Africa? Or in New Zealand for that matter?

IIRC it is Reds over Blues, Brumbies over Lions.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I know the thread has moved away from this topic a little, but does anybody see any merit in trying to develop a 3rd tier by running an continued 5 team comp through to around the end of the Tri Nations? This would create that 3rd tier by exposing fringe Super Rugby players a chance to play a better quality of rugby, allowing non-international Super Rugby players to continue to play in a better standard of rugby, have local rugby each week with teams fans already identify with (Reds, Brumbies, Force, Rebels & Waratahs), allow fringe Wallabies and returning injured Wallabies a good standard to play at without creating too much more financial burden.

Essentially Australia wide approximately 30 additional players at the lower end of the scale would need to be contracted to fill the void of those playing for the Wallabies, whilst non-playing squad members would drop back. Something like an 8 week comp with a 1v2 final which would run for 9 weeks in total, with each team having 2 byes. Obviously wouldn't be popular in clubland, due to the weakening of their rosters being lengthened, but would create the even playing field year round that Bruce Ross mentioned. I know they did this for the season before the ARC in some capacity. I feel this would maxmise the current resources (Players, Coaches, Administration) and increase exposure. If this was successful they could then look at slowly expanding over time in size of teams (thus moving to a more free contracting system like ITM cup where players can play Super Rugby in one province and ITM Cup in another. E.g. If Reds and Waratahs are having success due to their stronger local comps, look at adding additional teams in each state and spreading their talent), and also length if resources allow the contracting of more players to fill teams during Super Rugby.

Something like this can't just pop up and be successful, needs to grow somewhat organically and this is probably the closest to it without pumping years worth of financial resources to finally bear fruit.

 

[ChargerWA]

I would just prefer the S15 carries on while the Test's are underway. Wallabies/Boks/Blacks would go and play the tests and the fringe players would come into the S15 squads/teams and the comp would carry on.

The do it the 6N, why can't we?

 

[Nusadan]

I would just prefer the S15 carries on while the Test's are underway. Wallabies/Boks/Blacks would go and play the tests and the fringe players would come into the S15 squads/teams and the comp would carry on.

The do it the 6N, why can't we?

Not really, the clubs play another competition, the LV Cup which is essentially played during the November internationals and Six Nations and the English and Welsh teams are involved.

http://www.lv.com/aboutus/sponsorship/rugby-sponsorship/lv-cup/

But what you said does have merit...

 

[The Red Baron]

I would just prefer the S15 carries on while the Test's are underway. Wallabies/Boks/Blacks would go and play the tests and the fringe players would come into the S15 squads/teams and the comp would carry on.

It wouldn't work, as by that time the Currie cup and the ITM cup are in full swing. So I couldn't see SA and NZ agreeing to a proposal to continue the S15, as it would force their local competitions to compete with S15. Additionally, I can't see the Saffas and Kiwis consenting to a continuance of the S15, purely to satisfy a gaping hole in Australian developmental structure.

 

[the sabanator]

The problem with the Australian conference is that, as a country, we have 4 major football codes clogging up all the athletes. New Zealand don't have this and nor do South Africa, where rugby is boss. But imagine how much more depth we would have in rugby if the best league players had been developed as union players (like they would've most of the time in New Zealand and South Africa)

 

[The Red Baron]

But you also cannot say that the ARU has ever really been aggressive in increasing Rugby's market share in Australia. Instead of being proactive, they seem to be more reactive. This type of strategy keeps rugby largely confined to its strongholds. Subsequently, we rely on the same pools to draw our players from.

You can argue that the inclusion of the Force and Rebels counters my argument. However, the responsibility of developing the code in fringe state largely relies on the State unions. This softly softly approach to developing our game annoys me to no end.

 

[gel]

I'd be happy if the top three qld teams vs the top three NSW clubs played off in some kind of knock out at the end of the season (therefore very short championship season) in which the super rugby players are involved... Obviously a number of players that got the clubs there throughout the season would be pretty bummed being replaced by the super rugby players but it would at least be something a bit more regular and would only be the best teams in the two comps.

This also reinforces the knockout play style that is so important in the world cup.

Do they do something like this already?

Other local club comps to come in if and when the end of season comp has tv and financial backing.

 

[Schadenfreude]

And just to point out Australia's weakest team just beat the most successful team in super rugby history.

 

[Brisbok]

And just to point out Australia's weakest team just beat the most successful team in super rugby history.

I don't think too many Rebels fans would appreciate you saying that they are weaker than the Force considering that they have already beaten the Force once this year and are sitting 6 points in front of them on the table.

 

[kiap]

I don't think too many Rebels fans would appreciate you saying that they are weaker than the Force considering that they have already beaten the Force once this year and are sitting 6 points in front of them on the table.

Especially now that the Force are being raped in Durban.

Although they do have 4-points up their sleeve with a bye in hand.

Force v Rebels game next Sunday in Perth may well go some way towards deciding the matter.

 

[TOCC]

So the two highest ranked Kiwi teams were just beaten by Aussie teams....

Beached as bro

 

[Bruce Ross]

But you also cannot say that the ARU has ever really been aggressive in increasing Rugby's market share in Australia. Instead of being proactive, they seem to be more reactive.

You may well be giving them too much credit, TRB. "Reactive" still suggests that they are responsive to a stimulus. As I see it, if it were a medical situation, the doctors would be starting to think about harvesting organs.
.

 

[Country Kid]

I'd be happy if the top three qld teams vs the top three NSW clubs played off in some kind of knock out at the end of the season (therefore very short championship season) in which the super rugby players are involved...

Really we could do much better than a six team knock-out...

Why not include another six: NSW Country, Qld Country, the ACT grand finalists, Victoria, WA

Come to think of it, why not have another two involved: Combined States (South Australia, NT & Tassie) and 'Western Sydney' (basically a development team with the bulk of players from Parramatta & Penrith - to really help promote the game in Western Sydney)

All eight teams mentioned could have a smattering of super rugby players/development players/fringe super players asigned to their squads. These teams would then have a great opportunity to 'step up' in games against the leading Sydney & Brisbane clubs

The idea of a knock-out comp in October would provide strong rugby profile at a time when AFL and NRL have finished.

Ideally all teams should have at least two games, better still - three games. So 1st round losers could contest a 2nd tier comp (knock out or found robin)....

Is this just a crazy dream?

 

[gel]

Really we could do much better than a six team knock-out...

Why not include another six: NSW Country, Qld Country, the ACT grand finalists, Victoria, WA

Come to think of it, why not have another two involved: Combined States (South Australia, NT & Tassie) and 'Western Sydney' (basically a development team with the bulk of players from Parramatta & Penrith - to really help promote the game in Western Sydney)

All eight teams mentioned could have a smattering of super rugby players/development players/fringe super players asigned to their squads. These teams would then have a great opportunity to 'step up' in games against the leading Sydney & Brisbane clubs

The idea of a knock-out comp in October would provide strong rugby profile at a time when AFL and NRL have finished.

Ideally all teams should have at least two games, better still - three games. So 1st round losers could contest a 2nd tier comp (knock out or found robin)....

Is this just a crazy dream?

Definitely like your ideas, I just think it should start small and grow. It needs time for people to become accustomed to the idea and look forward to the end of season cup challenge thingy. It will almost certainly start off with a couple of seasons of economic losses before starting to gain traction. The smaller it starts, the smaller the losses and the easier initial losses can be covered before the concept gains traction in the fans and more importantly, financial community. Too big and it will fail the same way the ARC thing did.

GivE it 10-15 years* and it may then expand to 8, possibly 10 and the formation of a true second tier, complete with teams that most love to hate, perennial losers that everyone wishes would come good that eventually do only to have their players pillaged by the hated team the next season who win it again (damn them, I hate that team already) and ultimately press copy on the back page.

I think it also critical that the clubs are not manufactured or newly formed for now. This way there is interest in the local club scene (in order to see your team progress to the eos cup thingy) and interest in seeing your team during the cup thingy (or see Sydney uni lose to anyone if that's your thing).

It would be pretty unique in Australia as well as it would be the only competition that would require yearly qualification. I don't know how that would fit in with Australian fandom though as we tend to be fair weather fans at the best of times :/

Not a crazy dream, just a dream that is very much worth having.

* time frame may vary upon your levels of expectation and depend solely upon how full or empty you consider your glass to be.

 

[PaarlBok]

Phil Blake wants SA to have 6 teams and wants the Rebels and Force to ba Cats type. Cant find the englishh version

http://www.dieburger.com/Sport/Rugby/Gee-SA-6de-span-in-reeks-20120513

Gee SA 6de span in reeks

2012-05-13 20:52

• 
  DURBAN. – Suid-Afrika het genoeg goeie rugbyspelers om ’n sesde franchise in die Super-reeks te regverdig.

Nee, dit is nie een of ander desperate Lions-beampte wat dít kwytraak nie, maar niemand minder nie as ’n Aussie.
Phil Blake, die verdedigingsafrigter van die Western Force, het Saterdagaand hier op Kingspark nadat sy span met 53-11 deur die Sharks verslind is, erken die Super-reeks sal niks armer wees as ’n sesde Suid-Afrikaanse span toegelaat sou word nie.
Hy het selfs toegegee dat daar dalk meriete daarin kan wees om twee van die Aussie-franchises te laat saamsmelt om aan Suid-Afrika nog ’n span te gee.
“Dit is nou nie ’n besluit waarop ek enige invloed sal hê nie, maar Suid-Afrika is ’n rugbykrag wat met gemak ’n sesde span kan hê in hierdie reeks.
“Dit sal dalk nie so maklik wees om twee van die Aussie-spanne (moontlik Rebels en Western Force) saam te gooi nie, maar dis iets om te oorweeg,” het hy gesê.
Dié twee is die onderste twee Australiese spanne, hoewel die Rebels Saterdag ’n opskudding veroorsaak het deur die Crusaders te klop.
Nieu-Seelandse en Australiese rugbybase wou nog nie byt aan die gedagte van ’n sesde Suid-Afrikaanse span nie.
.Oor die Sharks se kans op Super-rugbyglorie is Blake nie baie positief nie.
“Ek glo hulle sal sukkel om die twee spanne bo hulle (Stormers en Bulls) in te haal, maar kan op huidige spelpeil dalk inglip as die vyfde of sesde span in die uitspeelstryde,” sê hy.
Hierdie was die Sharks se laaste wedstryd teen ’n oorsese span en hulle het nou vyf derby-wedstryde oor.
“Dit gaan ’n geweldige uitdaging wees en baie van ons verg,” erken John Plumtree, die Sharks-afrigter.
Hulle speel Saterdag in Bloemfontein teen die Cheetahs en die week daarna weer hier tuis teen die Stormers, voordat die Lions in Johannesburg gepak word en hulle afsluit met twee tuiswedstryde teen die Bulls en die Cheetahs.
Plumtree het ook gesê al is die Springbok-losvoorspeler Willem Alberts nie nou deel van die 22-tal nie, is dié stormram steeds in sy toekomsplanne.


- Die Burger

 

[barbarian]

Really? I find that hard to believe. What was the exact quote Paarl?