S15: Australia dont have depth

[Brisbok]

Isn't the bloke who has to fill Victors shoes got a job ahead of him.

For the Bulls definitely. Will be tough to replace him. For the Springboks we have a ready-made replacement in Andries Bekker if he can stay fit!

 

[PaarlBok]

Pining for the Super XV a couple of months ago I had a dig around. Quite a few of these guys played in the Saffa Provinces last season:
Agen/ Gert Muller (wasnt a regular starter for the Lions)
Biarritz/Eugene van Staden (returned to the Sharks)
Brive/Retief Uys (unknown player)
Clermont/Daniel Kotze (unknown player), Riaan Swanepoel (wasnt a regular starter at the Sharks), Brent Russell (havent played in ages in SA)
Montpellier/Rassie Van Vuuren (unknown player), Drickus Hancke (havent started and have left ages ago)
Perpignan /Rudi Coetzee (unknown), Gavin Hume (havent played S14 rugby)
Castres/Rory Kockott (lost his place at the Sharks)*
Stade Francais/Gerhard Mostert (regular starter for the Sharks, left last year already), Anton van Zyl (regular starter for the Stormers before the CC season)
Toulon/Bakkies Botha (Bok), André Pretorius (has been but think he came back and plays Vodacom for the Leipards) Toulous/Gary Botha (Bok), Gurthrö Steenkamp (Bok)Lyon/Coenraad Basson (unknown), Ricky Januarie (to fat to play rugby) Racing Metro/François van der Merwe (left ages ago and not a S14 starter), François Steyn (Bok, left previous year)Benetton/Benjamin Vermaak (unknown), Willem de Waal (has been left ages ago)Cardiff Blues/Andries Pretorius(unknown) Connacht/Ethienne Reynecke (not a regular starterand left ages ago) Leinster/Richardt Strauss (lost his place to his nephew and never been a regular starter at the Cheetahs), Heinke van der Merwe (left a few years already), Steven Sykes (back at the Sharks|) Munster/BJ Botha (left ages ago), Wian du Preez (left ages ago) Newport Gwent/Tonderai Chavhanga (has been rejected for S14) Bath/Francois Louw (Bok) Ulster/Johann Muller (old age home), Ruan Pienaar (Bok), Stefan Terblanche (old age home)Saracens/Schalk Brits (left ages ago), John Smit (has been), Derick Hougaard (has been) Newcastle/Adriaan Fondse (not a starter and force to leave), Corne Uys (not sure if he will make the current Cheetah squad anymore)Aironi/Frans Viljoen , Naas Olivier (wont make the Cheetah starting squad) Mont-de-Marsan/Berend Botha (unknown) Suntory Sungoliath Danie Rossouw (Bok), Fourie du Preez (Bok) Retired: Victor Matfield, Derick Kuun
*May have returned to RSA.

So from your list only a few that will start for their S15 teams at this very moment. Just show the depth in SA rugby. I'll watch the Brutes with interest because they lost the most experience players and had to rebuild since last year. They drop a few notches but SA have the value of the CC to help them start all over again with some exciting signed new SA talent.

Its a no brainer that in SA only 5% young rugby talent from U21 CC level make it to become a contracted S15 player. If we havent had the qouta tag, forced to have an Escimo, 6 whites, 3 Nigerians, 2 Zimbabwean and 3 coloureds in our national and S15 teams we would have been unbeaten in rugby. We are vokken lucky to have more structures to still been able despite our politics shite to be near the top of the rugby world on all levels of the game.

Jake White either start to look for excuses for probable failure at the Brumbies or he is trying to tell you the straight truth about your rugby and something I would not write off and rather try and do something about it.

 

[PaarlBok]

For the Bulls definitely. Will be tough to replace him. For the Springboks we have a ready-made replacement in Andries Bekker if he can stay fit!

Well the Brutes have some fine lock stock and isnt for nothing the tall timber factory in world rugby. They have Klein Flippie van der Merwe, jeanre Kruger and Wilhelm Steenkamp who led the Chettahs last year. Show me one S15 franchise that have better lock stock then this three.

 

[PaarlBok]

How many Boks moved on to Europe or Japan post RWC? or retired...Will there be a lot of SA newbies this season... or will we see the same old crew...

I''l bet you have a look at the brand new Brutes midfielders who starts in round 1. Francois Venter and Johann Sadie myself expect to be a great combo, also look out for their loose trio this year. There is some real talent.

Where the moer is Blou when I need his help?

 

[PaarlBok]

I think you are still 3 or 4 years back in memory or just have a real feel for SupeRugby or just have a lack of rugby knowledge, or myself looks at the wrong place of the SupeRugby logs.
2009: We had one team in the semis and won the title via the Brutes. Australia had fuckall in the semis.
2010: We had two teams at the top of the log and both played in the finals. Australia had one in the top 4.
2011: We had two teams in the top six. Australia had two.

S15 new era has shown that the Australia conferense the easiest by many a mile. Even the Cheetahs had more points on the log then the Australia bottom four who have been dishing points out like Chrismast gifts to the Reds and Waratahs. But then the Cheetahs beat the highly rated Tahs at home. The twenty point gap between the Tahs and Force is a big concern and show up the weak Aus conferense.

2008: SA Sharks Aus Tahs (the last time NZ dominate SupeRugby at the top)
2007: All SA final and first win for the Brutes. Aus had vokkol teams in the semis.

I can safely say that since 2007 SA has been a strong power at the top of the SupeRugby log on the field and off the field regarding supporters at matches.

making

mudskipper said: ↑

S15 is a new era... you need to get on board or could be left behind... SA can't agree on running their own conference... point made I think... OZ teams will continue to over perform... why because we run a better conference... SA can't dominate like the kiwis until they get their own house in order...

qoute a joke and his new era came short between his ears.​

 

[qwerty51]

Well the Brutes have some fine lock stock and isnt for nothing the tall timber factory in world rugby. They have Klein Flippie van der Merwe, jeanre Kruger and Wilhelm Steenkamp who led the Chettahs last year. Show me one S15 franchise that have better lock stock then this three.

Waratahs, Reds, Highlanders, Crusaders to name a few..

 

[PaarlBok]

Waratahs, Reds, Highlanders, Crusaders to name a few..

They havent played against the Brutes, we'll see and I'll bookmark this one to remind you.

 

[mudskipper]

Brutes who is that... the Bulls or the thugs? PaarlBok don't go anywhere its a long season...

Hey I like the names of those centers... any more tips for fantasy rugby....

 

[PaarlBok]

Brutes who is that... the Bulls or the thugs? PaarlBok don't go anywhere its a long season...

Hey I like the names of those centers... any more tips for fantasy rugby....

I have overstay my welcome loooooong ago.

Brutes = Bulls. We first have to see which newbies will play in round 1 before you put them up in fantasy rugby and suggest you look at the SA Conferense thread. Welcome to ask about the Saffer lot.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

So If we havent had the qouta tag, forced to have an Escimo, 6 whites, 3 Nigerians, 2 Zimbabwean and 3 coloureds in our national and S15 teams we would have been unbeaten in rugby. .

Indeed. And also, if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.

Paarl, we all know you guys would be better without all the political BS for sure, but lets not be disrespectful. I think you played your best team in the WC qtr & we all know what happened there...

BRYCEY!!!

(to be fair you to, you didn't have a bar of this & were the epitomy of a good sport)

 

[PaarlBok]

Indeed. And also, if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.

Paarl, we all know you guys would be better without all the political BS for sure, but lets not be disrespectful. I think you played your best team in the WC qtr & we all know what happened there...

BRYCEY!!!

(to be fair you to, you didn't have a bar of this & were the epitomy of a good sport)

Well we lost to the better team. Test rugby is a total different level as S15 rugby, as you should know and the Wallabies have a very good group of young players to take them further. Neither me or Jake White claim the Wallabies are kak, its the depth of their S15 franchises.

 

[PaarlBok]

Local derbies are hard fought wherever, not just in South Africa. It seems arrogant to infer all teams from SA have it harder when patently there have really only been 3 strong teams from there throughout Super Rugby; maybe all the SA teams were poor last year, hence the closer log there? You can interpret these things many ways.
I do agree our conference will tend to be a little weaker, but I don't agree the difference is as great as some would like to think.

Cyc I am still not over this Boet.
per Keo

Looking back to the 2011 campaign logs and results, it was also proven that the South African conference was more closely contested compared to the other pools.
The Australian conference was a two-horse race, with the Reds (67 log points) and Waratahs (57 log points) holding a big gap on the third-placed Western Force (37 log points). Those teams benefited from double-round fixtures against the struggling Rebels – which saw the Reds claim two bonus-point victories while the Tahs picked up nine log points from their two wins. The New Zealand conference saw a similar scenario, with the Crusaders (61 log points) and Blues (60 log points) dominating while the Highlanders (45 log points) finished as the third best Kiwi franchise.
In the South African conference, the Stormers (63 log points), Sharks (57 log points) and Bulls (54 log points) competed in a tight race for the local top prize. Second place was only decided in the second last round, when the Sharks beat the Bulls 26-23 in Pretoria. That win secured the Durban franchise a wildcard play-off spot, which they lost against the Crusaders.
What will make this campaign even more difficult for the top South African teams is that the Bulls won’t play the Force or Hurricanes while the Sharks won’t face the Rebels. The Stormers will get to play all those teams but centre Jean de Villiers believes the schedule will still be difficult for all local franchises.
‘Last year’s competition showed that the South African conference is the toughest,’ De Villiers told keo.co.za, ‘and it will be more competitive this season.
‘The Lions are full of confidence after winning their Currie Cup title while the Cheetahs look a dangerous side with some of their junior and senior players showing great form. The Bulls and Sharks are always quality sides, and will fight hard for first place. It’s going to be a challenging season on the South African scene.’
De Villiers also added that a successful overseas tour is crucial. The Stormers won three of their four tour league matches in 2011, while the Sharks (won two out of four) and Bulls (won one out of four) failed to achieve similar success in Australasia.
‘The important thing in the South African conference is how you do against the Australian and New Zealand teams, especially on tour. If you manage to pick up more wins than losses on the road, it will help your team have the edge over the others.’

 

[cyclopath]

How many points did the Lions and Cheetahs amass? Wait, I'll tell you. Cheetahs won as many as the Force, who also had 2 draws, the Lions as many as the Rebels, but the Lions had a draw. 40 and 29 points. In my bit you quoted, I mentioned 3 strong teams from SA, which you confirmed. I said you had 2 poor teams, which seems to also be confirmed. I also said our conference will tend to be a little bit weaker, but the difference is not as great as some seem to think. Jean de Villiers saying the Cheetahs and Lions will be tough is just an opinion, and compared to their historical form, proves nothing.

 

[mudskipper]

the Lions looked a lot better last year... If they have held onto the playing group they will push and surprise a few...

 

[cyclopath]

the Lions looked a lot better last year... If they have held onto the playing group they will push and surprise a few...

I'm sure they might. Just as the Rebels, Force, Brumbies, Hurricanes and any other supposedly "weak"teams might. Time will tell.

 

[spooony]

Australia might not have many but what they have they look after with great care.

 

[PaarlBok]

Something Jake White forgot to mention in the first post is the value for SA running our Vodacom Competition at the same time as the SupaRugby Competition. The curtain raisers in round 1 on Loftus and Newlands

Newlands:
Match Day Schedule
17h05: DHL Stormers vs Hurricanes
14h50: DHL WP vs Griquas (Friendly)
WP Vodacom Team:
15. William van Wyk, 14. Danie Poolman, 13. JP du Plessis, 12. Berton Klaasen, 11. Ederies Arendse, 10. Kurt Coleman, 9. Nic Groom, 8. Nick Fenton-Wells (C), 7. Nizaam Carr, 6. Rohan Kitshoff, 5. Quinn Roux, 4. Yaasir Hartzenberg, 3. Tom Botha, 2. Sidney Tobias, 1. Schalk Ferreira
RESERVES:
16. Madoda Yako, 17. Pieter Stemmet, 18. Jacques Kotze, 19. Don Armand, 20. Rick Schroeder, 21. Reuben Johannes, 22. Roderick Dalton, 23. Tyrone Holmes, 24. Demetri Catrakilis, 25. Michael van der Spuy, 26. Ghafoer Luckan, 27. Elmo Thomas
Referee: Lourens van der Merwe
Griquas team
Rudi Vogt, Jannie Boshoff, Wilmaure Louw, Matt Rosslee, PJ Vermeulen, Marnitz Boshoff, Jacques Coetzee, Leon Karemaker, Jonathan Adendorff, Marnus Schoeman, Ligtoring Landman (k), Jaco Nepgen, Ivann Espag, Matt Dobson, Steph Roberts. PLAASVERVANGERS: Simon Westraadt, Ryno Barnes, Eugene Butterworth, Justin Downey, Marnus Hugo, Jean Stemmet, Lolo Waka.
Referee: Lourens van der Merwe

The bolded lot is in the Stormers S15 squad but not in the match 22, the rest will play Vodacom and is close to S15 level and can be called up at any time. Ditto the Griqua team that will play under the Cheetahs SupeRugby team.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Hasn't this thread gone for a wander? Maybe bigtoughguy has a point.

 

[suckerforred]

Hasn't this thread gone for a wander? Maybe bigtoughguy has a point.

You right Bruce. It seems to have turned into a 'who has the least performing to potiential' thread.

Don't give a rats what the SA's say, the fact that they have 100 x the players that Oz has means that they have more depth. The fact that they con not perform with that depth is an entirely different discussion. As is the discussion about Australia seeming to punch above it weight when it comes to sport.

 

[sonny crockett]

Numbers don't equate to depth. Depth comes from a combination of numbers, very good coaches and talent ID at say 12 to 16 years of age to start with, and strong pathways that actually involve playing the game to strengthn and hone skills, not stuck away in academies holding tackle bags, strong administrations that have the right aspirations for the prospective code, rather than as has been seen in rugby at times, very personal agendas. I actually wrote a pretty long piece on it but decided not to bore you all, but don't be fooled into thinking that numbers equal depth. Get each piece right, and you have depth, in broad terms.